From: 'Michael A Jean' Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 4:47 am Subject: I Box Wow! This little set has generated a lot of conversation...I figure that I might as well join the fray...In short, I think it is a good deal for the price. The CDs have a generous running time. Yes there are numerous tracks that appeared on prior discs, but there are several that have not. Some are quite nice, like the more romantic sounding Unicorn Theme, and a track credited to Ralf Wadephul. It is hard to say what the exact origins of the live tracks are. However TD DID tour in support of Optical Race, Lily on the Beach and Melrose (which are the albums most of the live songs are from). As for audience noise, I personally prefer NOT to hear it. Given that much of the sound could be recorded direct to digital, why make use of exterior microphones that would result in inferior sound? It may also be a fore shadowing of TDI's eventual release of these three discs (which I don't think has happened yet). As for pondering whether they are studio creations or not... Who is to say exactly what constitutes 'live'? Does it have to be a major concert in front of a large audience? If you visited TD's studio while they were recording a tune, and played it right in front of you, and made a tape just for you, is that 'live'? I would say 'yes'! An artist playing in real time, is a live recording, regardless of the size of the audience. Take LIVEMILES for example... People say it is different from the concert performed in New Mexico, and therefore it isn't really live. Well, what if they DID perform it in New Mexico as a rehearsal before the show? Isn't it still live? Who knows? I am starting to bore myself...haha! As for the missing classic 70s material, I suspect the is one simple reason. TDI probably doesn't own the rights to the music;ie. VIRGIN does. I have spent just as much on three other highly anticipated, very short, and very disappointing CDs by Sade, Enya, and Madonna. In the case of ENYA we waited 5 years for a disc with a running time of less than 35 minutes! MJ Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25650 Re: I Box Sean Montgomery Fri 1/12/2001 3 KB 25651 Re: I Box Feldon Feldon Fri 1/12/2001 4 KB 25655 Re: I Box Greg Sat 1/13/2001 5 KB From: Klaus Beschorner Date: Thu Jan 11, 2001 9:59 pm Subject: Re: i-box >The booklet is indeed very very good, even better than the >Dream Roots Collection booklet. Lots of photos I haven't seen >yet. Similar effect as 20 years ago with the TD 70-80 4LP set. Armin, I agree with you as far as the selection of photos is concerned. But, man, the postage-stamp size of these pictures. And the miniscule white text on black background - headache guaranteed. Not entirely TDs fault, but they shouldn't just design a great LP-size booklet and then reduce it to CD size. Sure makes me wish the industry had selected the 12' laserdisk as the format for the CD, so that we could still have decent LP-size covers, booklets, pictures etc... Well, guess that just makes me a whiny old geezer ;-) cheers, klaus Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25644 Re: i-box Joel S. Mullen Fri 1/12/2001 3 KB 25674 Re: i-box Armin Theissen Mon 1/15/2001 3 KB 25678 Re: i-box Frank Arellano Mon 1/15/2001 4 KB From: 'Joel S. Mullen' Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 3:28 pm Subject: RE: [tadream] Re: i-box On Thursday, January 11, 2001 4:00 PM, Klaus Beschorner [SMTP:klaus@c...] wrote: > Sure makes me wish the industry had selected the 12' laserdisk > as the format for the CD, so that we could still have decent > LP-size covers, booklets, pictures etc... > That would make for one heck of a big hole in the dash of my car! Just imagine what a 5 disc changer would look like. It would be as big as a bed! Or imagine a room-sized Sony 400 disc changer that weighs 3000 lbs when fully loaded...... Nahhhh I think I will just hold the CD booklet a little closer to my eyes when I look at it. But I suppose using that same logic sitting 2 feet away from my 27' TV would be the same as owning a big-screen. ;-) Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25674 Re: i-box Armin Theissen Mon 1/15/2001 3 KB From: joes@f... Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 4:02 pm Subject: Re: live albums --- In tadream@egroups.com, Chris Richards wrote: > You think it's wrong for bands to use more than > one concert when preparing a live album? I don't no- it's not 'wrong'; I was just commenting on the fact that 'live' doesn't necessarily mean unadulterated and from only one concert. > on Space Ritual, and the Grateful Dead did it on > virtually all over their live albums. So long as Grateful Dead's 'Dick's Picks' series is unadulterated, single concerts, AFAIK From: Tom Richmond Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 4:02 pm Subject: Dreamwatchers' Tales CDR project Hello dreamers: This is the first call for participation in the 'Dreamwatchers' Tales' CDR tree. There are two levels of participation: Branch: one who is able (and willing) to make copies for others Leaf: one who wishes a copy, but is unable to make copies To sign up please send an email with the following information: Name Address City, State, Country email address (if different from where you're sending from) Branch or Leaf status - if you're signing up as a branch, please note how many copies you are willing and able to make to tmrtree@h... Please use this address for all correspondence regarding this project. While I can be reached at the address Yannick noted, I don't think the network administrators would appreciate the additional non-work-related volume on their server. It will be the responsibility of branches and leaves to arrange a trade that is acceptable to both parties. Branches please note that 'blanks plus return postage' MUST be an option. Not everyone has a lot to trade and we want to include everyone who's interested. I'll be accepting sign-ups for about two weeks. After all sign-ups are in (I'll post a reminder or two...) I'll be organizing two trees, one for North America and one for Europe. If you're not in either area, sign up anyway, we'll make sure you're taken care of. Any questions, email me at the above address. Cheers everybody! P.S. Special thanks to Yannick, Joe and anyone else involved with making this project a reality! ___________________________ IMPORTANT NOTICE: This message is intended only for the addressee. If you receive this message in error, please delete the material from your computer and notify the sender by email. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not copy, disclose, or distribute this message or its contents to any other person and any such actions may be unlawful.. From: olle.rundgren@s... Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 3:39 pm Subject: RE: Track credits Hartopp wrote: >Certainly, during the CF years, no matter who composed what track on >each album, it was always given a group credit, only sometimes the order >of composer would differ Notably on the 70-80 box. Certainly one of the most interesting examples of what each of the members of the classic lineup contibuted with to the overall sound-picture. There is the unmistakable Froese track with guitarr, the rhytmic piece of Francke and the lovely short Baumann track which is as good a proof as any of what his sense of melody meant to TD. /Olle From: Matthew Stringer Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] DREAMWATCHERS' TALES It's at this point I wish that the track I submitted was a lot better! Thank you to everyone involved in putting this thing together, it's shaping up to be very interesting indeed. On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, you wrote: > Hello everyone on the List > > First happy new year 2001. The new Millenium will see the CDR project now > titled 'Dreamwatchers' Tales' ... Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25649 Re: DREAMWATCHERS' TALES Richard Fri 1/12/2001 3 KB From: Richard Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] DREAMWATCHERS' TALES In message <01011216442003.08910@z...>, Matthew Stringer writes >It's at this point I wish that the track I submitted was a lot better! I have the same feeling about mine. -- Richard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: Sean Montgomery Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] I Box Michael A Jean wrote: > As for audience noise, I personally prefer NOT to hear it. True enough. The whole reason why so many fans want TD to release live material in the first place is because bootleg recordings have an *abundance* of crowd noise. Coughing, talking, whooping and hollering. But the whole point of putting out a live album is to a) give fans who couldn't make it to the show an idea of what they missed...and b) to give fans who were there a document of the experience. Consequently, a track like 'Dreamyard' fails on both counts. And yes, so does Livemiles. But at least Livemiles featured previously-unreleased music (and good music at that). Repackaging already available studio recordings, and suckering fans into buying them by calling them 'live' is just shameless. Look, TD obviously knows that live tapes of their shows are in the fan community, so why do they expect to fool people? > As for pondering whether they are studio creations or not... Who is to say > exactly what constitutes 'live'? Does it have to be a major concert in > front of a large audience? If you visited TD's studio while they were > recording a tune, and played it right in front of you, and made a tape just > for you, is that 'live'? Now you're sounding like a lawyer, Mr. Jean. Should we start calling Mars Polaris, Stratofear and Le Parc 'live' albums? -- SEAN MONTGOMERY T O P I X / Mad Dog http://www.topix.com/~sean From: 'Feldon Feldon' Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 5:25 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] I Box >From: 'Michael A Jean' > >It is hard to say what the exact origins of the live tracks are. Well, members on the list who have commented so far have heard pretty much every live concert either in person or on tape during the years inclusive in i-Box. So except for the 'studio live' which you mention, these tracks can't be considered truly live except for a few tracks such as Longing for Cashba (I've got the 1990 tape it's from and I can say it's for real). >As for audience noise, I >personally prefer NOT to hear it. Given that much of the sound could be >recorded direct to digital, why make use of exterior microphones that would >result in inferior sound? That's funny. I've always found myself enjoying the ambience of these concert halls and and audience noise. While most of the tapes I have could be in a lot clearer shape, I don't think there is a major hit by audience noise being allowed to overlap the music, even for the first 30 seconds or so. And I have to tell you, EVERY track from Exit that has been performed live has been so much more interesting than the album versions it's unreal. >Take LIVEMILES for example... People say it is different from the concert >performed in New Mexico, and therefore it isn't really live. Well, what if >they DID perform it in New Mexico as a rehearsal before the show? Well that's the joke. They must have had an unbelieveable 35 minute rehearsal, playing 1 song that wouldn't be played live DURING a concert until 1988, and another song that never got played live. And also, track 3 of the Alberquerque was never played that at that speed, and always led into the 1986 Logos-Blue rewrite. So it could be POSSIBLE that it was played that night. The bottom line is anyone who attended that concert and then bought the CD didn't have 1 nanosecond of their memories of the concert etched on the CD. And the Spanish introduction was just an insult. I wonder how much they paid someone to act up that part. And I agree with the comments about Edgar dodging Chris Franke tracks in a prior post. It'll take a lot to disprove this theory with me. -Morgan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From: 'j.gordon' Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 7:56 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] DREAMWATCHERS' TALES I'll bet you anything that this is exactly what Edgar thinks when he pulls out those dusty ole tapes... ;) j.gordon --- Richard wrote: > In message <01011216442003.08910@z...>, Matthew Stringer > writes > >It's at this point I wish that the track I submitted was a lot better! > > I have the same feeling about mine. > -- > Richard > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. > To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... > Website: http://www.tadream.net > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online! http://photos.yahoo.com/ Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25653 Re: DREAMWATCHERS' TALES Richard Fri 1/12/2001 3 KB From: Richard Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] DREAMWATCHERS' TALES In message <20010112195606.6632.qmail@w...>, j.gordon writes >I'll bet you anything that this is exactly what Edgar thinks when he pulls out >those dusty ole tapes... ;) I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. -- Richard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: 'Frank Arellano' Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 3:47 am Subject: Re: [tadream] DREAMWATCHERS' TALES It's probably true though :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Richard' To: Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [tadream] DREAMWATCHERS' TALES > In message <20010112195606.6632.qmail@w...>, j.gordon > writes > >I'll bet you anything that this is exactly what Edgar thinks when he pulls out > >those dusty ole tapes... ;) > > I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. > -- > Richard > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. > To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... > Website: http://www.tadream.net > > From: 'Greg' Date: Fri Jan 12, 2001 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] I Box ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Michael A Jean' To: 'Tadreamonelist' Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 9:47 PM Subject: [tadream] I Box > As for pondering whether they are studio creations or not... Who is to say > exactly what constitutes 'live'? Does it have to be a major concert in > front of a large audience? If you visited TD's studio while they were > recording a tune, and played it right in front of you, and made a tape just > for you, is that 'live'? I would say 'yes'! An artist playing in real time, > is a live recording, regardless of the size of the audience. > MJ I have to disagree.. studio albums are often recorded in tracks.. mixed.. messed with.. etc. There is only so much three (or two) people can do at any one given time.. *if* they don't have giga-samplers with their own pre-recorded tunes ready to be mixed. Now we can draw the line between when TD actually played concerts and just hit play in more modern concerts. Without a doubt I think TD could perform 'live' a studio track today exactly as its studio original.. but with use of numerous hard drives, samplers and MIDI. But if we are talking about a performance 13 or 14 years ago, we have to look at the characteristics of the band, did they play exactly like the studio material? What about concert tapes - do live versions of material exist that sound exactly studio original? Did they have technology that allowed for studio sound duplication? Was the material created for or designed to be properly performed in a way that would match the studio creation? The thing I'm getting at here is the inevitability that one will call studio work live simply because it's electronic music - digital music thus being performed everywhere live by those who have the digital duplicates. The band can appear, make themselves look busy, but push out the same exact tune on the CD you just bought 5 months before. In all honesty, I think that's why electronic music isn't so huge in America, people like performance, shows, variety.. they are huge quick-gratification freaks (I know, I live here!). TD hasn't slumped that low of yet.. as long as they have the guitar, there will be some variation. Also they usually add some 'live texture' to the music with some MIDI percussion and sound effects. Live used to ultimately refer to an artist who can perform music in front of an audience in such a way that it is entertaining and shows the talent of the artist. Bit it also creates a pressure situation on the artist, sometimes causing errors in playing. About the only problems TD has these days is blown speakers, technical problems, and power outages. Live music used to take away that studio polish.. and this polish is what I still hear in the so called 'live' versions of those tracks on the iBox. The day we pay to hear TD CDs at a TD concert just for the big sound system is the day I think I'll give up on the band. You can only stretch what the word live means so far. Greg H. NP: i-Mac.. oops.. I mean i-Box AKA (a Microsoft PC) heh From: keri.ford@p... Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 8:42 pm Subject: Hi There, I was surfing the net for Tangerine Dream album reviews and finding very little when I came across this discussion group which I thought might be able to help me. I first got into Tangerine Dream ages ago listenning to my brothers copy of Phaedra, subsegquently I got Rubycon, Ricochet, Tangram, 70-80 & Zeit. These were all on vinyl. This was music from outer space from the distant reaches of the mind, reaching down into the heart of the creative nature to return with strange jewel like dreams beautiful beyond ones wildest hopes. Now after some years I'm rediscovering this band trying to decide what to buy etc, so if you can give me some overview that would be much appreciated. I have recently got Hyperborea, Oasis (Soundtrack), Tyger (which I just had to get as I also greatly admire William Blake, although I find the pronunciation of the River Thames very funny) & Atem. In a shop handy to me there are copies of Optical Race, Le Parc, The Hollywood Years, Underwater Sunlight, Green Desert, Alpha Centauri, The Dream Mixes I & Electronic Meditations. What would people recommend, I would like representative works from all the different periods of the Dream. If anyone can point me to a site of good comprehensive online TD reviews that would be great too. Ciao Borris From: 'Paul Fellows' Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 8:41 pm Subject: Re : [tadream] Tangerine Dream story Hi all, Well, Heiko Heerssen and myself have at last finished a readable version of that very long 28 page biography which you have all been dying to see, it's at the following address under the 'Aktuelle' button: http://www.germanrock.de/ And they very generously offered us both a CD for our trouble! Paul From: keri.ford@p... Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 8:44 pm Subject: Newbie wanting TD reviews Hi There, I was surfing the net for Tangerine Dream album reviews and finding very little when I came across this discussion group which I thought might be able to help me. I first got into Tangerine Dream ages ago listenning to my brothers copy of Phaedra, subsegquently I got Rubycon, Ricochet, Tangram, 70-80 & Zeit. These were all on vinyl. This was music from outer space from the distant reaches of the mind, reaching down into the heart of the creative nature to return with strange jewel like dreams beautiful beyond ones wildest hopes. Now after some years I'm rediscovering this band trying to decide what to buy etc, so if you can give me some overview that would be much appreciated. I have recently got Hyperborea, Oasis (Soundtrack), Tyger (which I just had to get as I also greatly admire William Blake, although I find the pronunciation of the River Thames very funny) & Atem. In a shop handy to me there are copies of Optical Race, Le Parc, The Hollywood Years, Underwater Sunlight, Green Desert, Alpha Centauri, The Dream Mixes I & Electronic Meditations. What would people recommend, I would like representative works from all the different periods of the Dream. If anyone could point me to a good comprehensive site for online TD reviews that would be great. Ciao Borris Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25662 Re: Newbie wanting TD reviews Gustavo Jobim Mon 1/15/2001 4 KB 25664 Re: Newbie wanting TD reviews Jared White Mon 1/15/2001 5 KB 25680 Re: Newbie wanting TD reviews Frank Arellano Tue 1/16/2001 5 KB From: 'Paul Fellows' Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 9:05 pm Subject: Re : [tadream] I Box Hi all, A lot of people seem to think that they are being cheated with the album 'LiveMiles' because it's nothing like the original live concert. Well, here's why: Regarding 'LiveMiles' it has to be said however that contrary to the bootleg recording it does not correspond to the original concert in Berlin. For legal reasons Tangerine Dream could not release the whole concert, but had to cut out some sections due to legal reasons. As Edgar explained in a 1989 interview: 'not only unreleased material was played during the live concerts. As we often do, things were also played which appeared as parts of official releases. Music which sometimes has been locked away in the safes of the film production companies, partially on records, which are difficult to obtain, etc. For the release of LiveMiles we had to use certain sequences and sections which were legally available to us. We had to make a lot of compromises. In this case we were particularly sad about it because there was so much atmosphere here which we wanted to put on record. But we had to cut bits out, change sequences and do remixes in order to remain within the legal framework.' There's your answer, and hopefully the peasants will be a bit less revolting as a result (we can always live in hope, anyway)! By the way, I think it's a great album on its own merit, I don't care how it was made or where it came from, it's already pretty impressive considering it was 'patched together' at a later date... Paul From: spawnofcthulhu@w... Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 11:13 pm Subject: TD albums Borris should get I've just recently started getting into TD again bigtime after first being introduced to them years ago. I am mainly a fan of their older stuff, so I would recommend going to that shop and getting Green Desert asap. Other must-haves (IMO) not on your list are Poland (1984), Logos (1982) and Stratosfear (1976). mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: 'Glenn Folkvord' Date: Sat Jan 13, 2001 10:41 pm Subject: SV: [tadream] Newbie wanting TD reviews Hey, I have a website with electronic music reviews, including TD. Some may call them 'alternative' reviews..... Due to some people here being pissed of at me (not that I care) I wont 'spam' the list with the URL again but contact me in private if you want to know, Borris (or was it Keri?) glenn Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25666 SV: [tadream] Newbie wanting TD reviews Glenn Folkvord Mon 1/15/2001 3 KB From: Gustavo Jobim Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 4:02 am Subject: Re: Newbie wanting TD reviews > From: keri.ford@p... >In a shop handy to me >there are copies of Optical Race, Le Parc, The Hollywood Years, >Underwater Sunlight, Green Desert, Alpha Centauri, The Dream >Mixes I & Electronic Meditations. What would people >recommend, I would like representative works from all the >different periods of the Dream. From the first years (70-73), you already have a good album, which is Zeit. Many people hate it but I like it a lot, because it's a fantastic space-ambient album. I rarely play it though. Alpha Centauri is the best album from that period, with the best track from that period which is the second one, Fly And Collision of Comas Sola. Franke's drumming is very good in there. I wouldn't recommend Electronic Meditation; it's their first one, it's a rehearsal recorded in 69, very very experimental. And not so electronic. From the Virgin years (74-83), you have some of the best. I would also recommend Encore (77), their second live album, which is good because it has all their styles from 71 to 76. White Eagle (82) is another great album, a bit like Hyperborea but better. Le Parc (85) is one of my favourites, as is Poland (84). Le Parc has a very good blend of rhythmic and melodic tracks. I consider Lily on the Beach (89) quite similar to Le Parc in that way, although it sounds a bit more uniform than Le Parc and has a few unnecessary tracks. Lily has some of my favourite tracks like Valley of the Kings, Crystal Curfew and Too Hot For My Chinchilla. Underwater Sunlight (86) and Le Parc (85), IMO, are just like Hyperborea (83) and White Eagle (82): the second is good, but the first is better. Und.Sun. has great tracks. My favourite are the first one (Song of the Whale part one) and the first of side B (Dolphin Dance). Another very good album is 220 Volt Live (92). Another anjoyable one from the 90s is Tyranny of Beauty (95), although after the first two or three tracks it begins to sound too uniform for me; each track begins to sound just like the previous one. I play Tyranny as rarely as Zeit. You can read lots of reviews searching the list's files at the egroups site, just search for the album name between brackets, like [Zeit], and you should find lots of them. We had scheduled weekly album discussions,which ended some time in November/early December. Gustavojobim (gustavfj@m...) From: 'Harri Ikonen' Date: Sun Jan 14, 2001 2:57 pm Subject: TD video clips While browsing germanrock.de, I somehow got to inet-tv.net web site (famous for it's solar eclipse video with TD music) and noticed that there are other TD clips too. The following are from the Oasis video, but there's also some added commentary about the nature scenes. Flashflood http://real1.inet-tv.net:8080/ramgen/clips/oasis/oasis01.smil Waterborne http://real1.inet-tv.net:8080/ramgen/clips/oasis/oasis02.smil Summer Storm http://real1.inet-tv.net:8080/ramgen/clips/oasis/oasis03.smil And here's the real treat, nine minutes of clips from TD's April 18, 1997 concert http://inet-tv.net/inet/ramfiles/tdlive.ram Anybody know if there's a videotape of the concert circling around somewhere? Regards, Harri From: 'Jared White' Date: Sun Jan 14, 2001 12:18 am Subject: RE: [tadream] Newbie wanting TD reviews Hi, Borris, Welcome to the wild and woolly world of TD fans! > Now after some years I'm rediscovering this band trying to > decide what to buy etc, so if you can give me some overview that > would be much appreciated. I have recently got Hyperborea, > Oasis (Soundtrack), Tyger (which I just had to get as I also > greatly admire William Blake, although I find the pronunciation of > the River Thames very funny) & Atem. In a shop handy to me > there are copies of Optical Race, Le Parc, The Hollywood Years, > Underwater Sunlight, Green Desert, Alpha Centauri, The Dream > Mixes I & Electronic Meditations. What would people > recommend, I would like representative works from all the > different periods of the Dream. Optical Race, Le Parc, and Dream Mixes I are very good landmark albums to buy if you're still getting a feel for TD's various styles. Optical Race was the first album TD made after Chris Franke left, and it was the beginning of a new epoch in TD history. Le Parc was made several years before and was the last album to feature the talents of Johannes Schmoelling. Dream Mixes I came out in 1995 featuring Jerome Froese's new dance sensibilities that took TD's then-current output to a new level. A few more albums I'd heartily recommend are Turn of the Tides (1994), Goblin's Club (1996), and Mars Polaris (1999). If you would like to hear a more laid-back, contemplative, and classical-like side of modern TD, try Seven Letters from Tibet (2000). Whatever you do, stay away from Hollywood Years! A worst collection of 'music' from TD you can't find anywhere, IMHO! > If anyone could point me to a good comprehensive site for online > TD reviews that would be great. Well, since I'm one of the principal people 'pissed off' at Glenn Folkvord, I guess it'd be OK for me to temporarily bury the hatchet and let you know that he runs a very detailed and well-thought-out electronic music review site called Electronic Shadows, and the URL for it is http://www.folkvord.net/electronicshadows . Bear in mind, though, that Electronic Shadows' reviewers sometimes have very different outlooks on things, so using their reviews as a guide to the best and worst of modern TD is not always the best idea. ;) No offense, Glenn.... Another site to try is Synth Music Direct ( http://www.synthmusicdirect.com ), but they seem fixated on 70's/80's TD clones, so their TD reviews aren't always very useful either (since modern TD is pretty different from the older material). Hope that helps, Jared From: 'John Marchington' Date: Sun Jan 14, 2001 12:16 am Subject: 'Live' recordings I have been following the recent i-Box 'live' arguments with interest and can report that such recordings are by no means always as one might imagine them to be. In the late 1970s, Leonard Bernstein took the New York Philharmonic on tour which included Japan, and Columbia (now Sony) made a so-called 'live' recording of the Shostakovich fifth symphony in Tokyo (1979) while on that tour. I have that (analogue) recording, and one can clearly hear changes in tape hiss in the opening and slow movements of the symphony, suggesting the editing out of moments where the producer felt that the playing was perhaps less than ideal, or audience participation was excessive, and the subsequent incorporation of the same music from (presumably) rehearsals for the concert. One can't help wondering whether TD has adopted a similar approach to its live recordings in the past -- and I'm thinking of the original 'Ricochet', 'Encore', 'Logos', 'Poland', 'Pergamon', 'LiveMiles' etc in saying that, let alone the i-Box tracks. For my part, however, suspecting that such tinkering might have happened doesn't in any way detract from my enjoyment of the music, or one's impressions of the band's performances of it -- and THAT, at the end of the day, is what counts most for me! Indeed, I have found that wrong notes, poor playing or other mistakes in recorded performances can become increasingly annoying with repeated hearings, and I cannot believe that TD concerts are error-free anyway. Food for thought? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25667 Re: 'Live' recordings Patrik . Mon 1/15/2001 3 KB 25671 Re: 'Live' recordings Matthew Sawyer Mon 1/15/2001 3 KB 25675 Re: 'Live' recordings David Foster Mon 1/15/2001 3 KB 25676 Re: 'Live' recordings Feldon Feldon Mon 1/15/2001 7 KB 25677 Re 'Live' recordings (ATTN: MARTIN) Robert Grabowsky Mon 1/15/2001 2 KB 25685 Re: 'Live' recordings Hermes Guzman Tue 1/16/2001 11 KB 25690 Re: 'Live' recordings Steve Tue 1/16/2001 3 KB 25681 Re: 'Live' recordings John Marchington Tue 1/16/2001 10 KB 25682 Re: 'Live' recordings Patrik . Tue 1/16/2001 3 KB From: 'Glenn Folkvord' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 5:36 am Subject: SV: [tadream] Newbie wanting TD reviews Jared, >Well, since I'm one of the principal people 'pissed off' at Glenn Folkvord, >I guess it'd be OK for me to temporarily bury the hatchet and let you know >that he runs a very detailed and well-thought-out electronic music review >site called Electronic Shadows, and the URL for it is >http://www.folkvord.net/electronicshadows . Bear in mind, though, that >Electronic Shadows' reviewers sometimes have very different outlooks on >things, so using their reviews as a guide to the best and worst of modern TD >is not always the best idea. ;) No offense, Glenn.... None taken :-) There are two of us that reviews on that site; Loren is usually more positive towards TD than me..... Glenn www.folkvord.net/electronicshadows (oops, there it is) www.folkvord.net/reviewtalk www.egroups.com/group/pspusers From: 'Patrik .' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:55 am Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings Yes, maybe we should refer to them as 'live' recordings. Were Poland polished? *s* Were Logos also 'enhanced'? Personally, I prefer live recordings with all the flaws and wrong notes, but since we´re in the era of the Steinbergs, I guess all wrong notes have eliminated themselves, so to speak. Live Miles - is just not live at all, as I understand...? If it´s live then it should be live! imho Patrik, Stockholm, Sweden _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From: 'j.gordon' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 9:41 am Subject: Re: [tadream] I Box / Live > > As for pondering whether they are studio creations or not... Who is to say > > exactly what constitutes 'live'? Does it have to be a major concert in > > front of a large audience? If you visited TD's studio while they were > > recording a tune, and played it right in front of you, and made a tape just > > for you, is that 'live'? > > Now you're sounding like a lawyer, Mr. Jean. Should we start calling Mars > Polaris, Stratofear and Le Parc 'live' albums? whoops, wait a second... i'd have to say that michael's got a point... let's assume that an e-music band, say with three members, works on a piece, rehearses it a few times, gets some ideas of melody and chord structure, then goes into the studio and lays down the track straight in one take, only the three different keyboards and say, a drum machine for support... to my way of thinking, this is live... even if the wrong note here and there is edited out... as long as no more tracks are laid down, and mastering is minimal... someone said 'live' used to mean in front of an audience, but i would say, from experience, that if you are playing something without the safety net of stopping and editing, esp. if what you are playing contains new material, the people playing it are as much an audience, and in fact, can often enjoy it more than an audience member... merriam-webster defines live (in this case, the adverbial form) as: at the actual time of occurrence... so we can get hung up on semantics or we can look at the different perspectives: most bands take the opportunity when performing in concert to be creative with their music, usually with new intros or outros, or a new bridge or most often, with the solos... if a band decides to perform songs that completely reproduce what is on the album, then you end up with the perspective that someone mentioned earlier: you are basically paying money to hear the CD on a bigger stereo system with lots of other people... the band, IMO, loses the chance to play around with some of their music... the feeling i get from most of the comlaints about the music being live is that it's not different from what is on the album... that somehow, by being played in front of an audience, it should have something else that the album version doesn't... and that is totally an artistic choice... flame on, boys... j.gordon __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From: Matthew Stringer Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 10:31 am Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: live albums If you look at the PF web site it tells you exactly what was used. On Fri, 12 Jan 2001, you wrote: > << was about to comment on the album Pulse, but I > > can't remember if PF merged the tracks together > that were from different shows to make them seem > like they were from the same show - or not. Not > quite as egregious as a studio with crowd > overdubs, of course, but it came to mind. I'm > thinking back to live albums from the past: did > my Kiss Alive album say the songs were from > different venues or not? etc.>> > From: Heiko Heerssen Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 8:36 am Subject: Ossiach live 3 LP at eBAY Hello hunters and collectors, my copy of 'OSSIACH LIVE' (3 lp set) is now waiting for your bids at eBAY (in Mint- condition!) The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1404304023 This auction has a reserve price. Heiko From: 'Matthew Sawyer' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 8:02 am Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings From: John Marchington > I cannot believe that TD concerts are error-free anyway. They certainly aren't. Comparing Pergamon and the bootleg version of the concert, I much prefer the official release. In the bootleg, the piano section at the beginning sounds 'cheesier' for some reason, and there are sections where wrong notes are played and the music threatens to fall apart a little. On the subject of doctoring the music, yes, TD have always altered live recording for release. I think the difference is that today, Edgar is trying to 'clean up' old performances by placing 'newer' music onto it. Soundmill, for example. The original concert and the new material added to it are 25 years apart. They don't sit together well. Maff ________________________________________ http://www.tachyon.ic24.net/ http://www.eclipsecafe.com/ From: fstephe@a... Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 2:44 pm Subject: What ever happen to... Does anybody have an e-mail address for Lars Jones? Just wondering whatever happened to him. Please e-mail me offlist if you have an e- mail and don't think he would mind you giving it out. Thanks and much appreciated! From: Tom Richmond Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 3:49 pm Subject: first reminder - Dreamwatcher's Tales CDR tree Hello dreamers: This is the first reminder for participation in the 'Dreamwatchers' Tales' CDR tree. I have 23 sign-ups so far, and it seems that everyone in Europe wants to be a branch. Are there any leaves out there? Sign-ups will be open for a couple weeks, but I thought I'd post a reminder to make sure everyone was aware as soon as possible. So here's the scoop again... There are two levels of participation: Branch: one who is able (and willing) to make copies for others Leaf: one who wishes a copy, but is unable to make copies To sign up please send an email with the following information: Name Address City, State, Country email address (if different from where you're sending from) Branch or Leaf status - if you're signing up as a branch, please note how many copies you are willing and able to make to tmrtree@h... Please use this address for all correspondence regarding this project. It will be the responsibility of branches and leaves to arrange a trade that is acceptable to both parties. Branches please note that 'blanks plus return postage' MUST be an option. Not everyone has a lot to trade and we want to include everyone who's interested. Any questions, email me at the above address. Cheers! Tom ___________________________ IMPORTANT NOTICE: This message is intended only for the addressee. If you receive this message in error, please delete the material from your computer and notify the sender by email. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not copy, disclose, or distribute this message or its contents to any other person and any such actions may be unlawful.. From: 'Armin Theissen' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 6:35 pm Subject: Re: i-box I own a very very nice re-release of John Coltrane's 'Blue Train' (yes, I love jazz) which is an 'enhanced' CD: stick it into your PC and you have BIG beautiful high rez pictures even better than those on LP sleeves and even MOVIES! Now that would be something nice to do for TD..... armin > > > Sure makes me wish the industry had selected the 12' laserdisk > > as the format for the CD, so that we could still have decent > > LP-size covers, booklets, pictures etc... > > > > That would make for one heck of a big hole in the dash of my car! > Just imagine what a 5 disc changer would look like. It would be as > big as a bed! Or imagine a room-sized Sony 400 disc changer > that weighs 3000 lbs when fully loaded...... Nahhhh I think I will > just hold the CD booklet a little closer to my eyes when I look at > it. But I suppose using that same logic sitting 2 feet away from > my 27' TV would be the same as owning a big-screen. ;-) From: 'David Foster' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 6:44 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings Patrik says > Personally, I prefer live recordings with all the flaws and wrong notes, but > since we´re in the era of the Steinbergs, I guess all wrong notes have > eliminated themselves, so to speak. I agree with most of what you say but there are some times when the bum notes just spoil it. I am referring in particular to the Fassbender memorial concert. > Live Miles - is just not live at all, as I understand...? Whether it is live or not I think its a great recording. I was surprised it came out near to Tyger and sounded similar. But I will play Livemiles any time over Tyger. David From: 'Feldon Feldon' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 6:08 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings >From: 'John Marchington' > >I have been following the recent i-Box 'live' arguments with interest and >can report that such recordings are by no means always as one might imagine >them to be. > >In the late 1970s, Leonard Bernstein took the New York Philharmonic on tour >which included Japan, and Columbia (now Sony) made a so-called 'live' >recording ... [where] one can clearly hear changes in tape hiss in the >opening and slow movements of the symphony, suggesting the editing out of >moments where the producer felt that the playing was perhaps less than >ideal >One can't help wondering whether TD has adopted a similar approach to its >live recordings in the past -- and I'm thinking of the original 'Ricochet', >'Encore', 'Logos', 'Poland', 'Pergamon', 'LiveMiles' etc in saying that, >let alone the i-Box tracks. > >For my part, however, suspecting that such tinkering might have happened >doesn't in any way detract from my enjoyment of the music, or one's >impressions of the band's performances of it -- and THAT, at the end of the >day, is what counts most for me! Indeed, I have found that wrong notes, >poor playing or other mistakes in recorded performances can become >increasingly annoying with repeated hearings, and I cannot believe that TD >concerts are error-free anyway. UUUUUUURRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! I keep seeing this argument. John, you will find very few complaints from this list if Edgar took concert tapes from the past, maybe found the best playings of different songs, edited them together, and labeled them PROPERLY as maybe a 2 disc 'the 1981 Concert Series' for example. This is WITHOUT adding any 1990s/2000s pink poodle revisionist fluffery. People are not upset because Edgar is editing vintage concerts together. We'd probably be mildly overjoyed if he granted us at least this (and labeled it as such). Instead, he is dusting and fraudulently labeling live concerts which are in fact 50% or less impressions of the actual concert. As you mention, 'Ricochet', 'Encore', 'Logos', 'Poland', 'Pergamon', 'LiveMiles' are not vanilla recordings of each concert. Ricochet was never professed as a live concert. It has pieces from at least a dozen concerts over that year (or may be a single recording of a concert for which no tape exists). Encore has 3 tracks taken from the 1977 tour, and then 1 track that is mostly from the tour, but has studio dustings THAT ARE VINTAGE-ACCURATE (same equipment). Logos is a fairly accurate depiction of the October 1982 concert except it skips over the whole of the Logostypes passage (~24 minutes of unreleased material which appeared in The Keep and other soundtracks), and nicely improvised Choronzon, Tangent, and Mojave Plan versions. The intensity of the guitar work near the end of the concert has been dialed down, and the White Eagle and Midnight in Tula encores have been cut. Poland has simply been edited to cover for power outages that occured at the Warsaw 1983 concert, as well as to make the concert fit on four 22 minute sides (vinyl!). Pergamon has been well documented on this list. Some is pretty close to what was played, some is purely studio work, and of course we'll never have the afternoon show on CD. :( And not one minute of Livemiles was played live, as is, in 1986/87. You're not getting serious complaints over Ricochet, Encore, Logos, and Poland on this list, at least not from me. Sure it would be nice if Edgar would release the rest of the pieces from these concerts, especially the ~12 hours of unreleased 1977 material which SHOULD have no copyright issues unless Virgin has an unprecedented 'live performances' ownership clause in the contract. The complaint you are hearing on this list is that Edgar's definition of a 'live' release now, in the example of the Perth 1982 'concert' as appeared on i-Box, is to: 1) Perform a 17 minute solo in the studio. 2) Bridge this into an exact copy of Mojave Plan from the White Eagle master tapes 3) Awkwardly bridge this into an exact copy of Convention of the 24 from the White Eagle master tapes. 4) Tack on a Pinnacles solo recorded in the studio. Here's another example--Sohoman is supposed to be a Melbourne, Australia 1982 concert (which, thankfully, exists as Outback Voices in the bootleg world). It contains: 1) About 5-10 minutes of solo work recorded in the studio. 2) The first ~35 minutes of the concert turned down to about 60% volume and then 1999 keyboards played on top at full volume, counter to the spirit of the original music. 3) Completely removed the guitar solo from Bondy Parade (a 12 minute track) and then shortened the track to 8 minutes (without the guitar, it's a boring track so I don't blame him for reactively taking the 2nd step). 4) Added 5 minutes of solo, recorded in the studio. Do you think either of these accurately represent what was played in 1982? Your Leonard Bernstein 70's series may not appease the fans hoping for a single recording of a favorite show they attended, but it damn well represents REAL Leonard Bernstein music from the 1970's. Morgan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25677 Re 'Live' recordings (ATTN: MARTIN) Robert Grabowsky Mon 1/15/2001 2 KB 25685 Re: 'Live' recordings Hermes Guzman Tue 1/16/2001 11 KB 25690 Re: 'Live' recordings Steve Tue 1/16/2001 3 KB From: Robert Grabowsky Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 8:54 pm Subject: Re 'Live' recordings (ATTN: MARTIN) Attention Martin of the Tangerine Dream homepage: Can you get any comments from Edgar on all of the comments that have been made about these recordings? Maybe as to why he does this. Does it involve copyright problems? I think it is about time we hear it from the source as I am getting tired of hearing people complaining. Enough is Enough, THE HIGHLANDER aka Robert Grabowsky From: 'Frank Arellano' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 9:31 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: i-box Armin, I delved into my first Froese solo, 'Pinnacles and enjoyed it. In particular the first track, which I thought was excellent. ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Armin Theissen' To: Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 11:35 AM Subject: [tadream] Re: i-box > > I own a very very nice re-release of John Coltrane's 'Blue Train' > (yes, I love jazz) which is an 'enhanced' CD: stick it into your > PC and you have BIG beautiful high rez pictures even better than > those on LP sleeves and even MOVIES! > > Now that would be something nice to do for TD..... > > armin > > > > > > Sure makes me wish the industry had selected the 12' laserdisk > > > as the format for the CD, so that we could still have decent > > > LP-size covers, booklets, pictures etc... > > > > > > > That would make for one heck of a big hole in the dash of my car! > > Just imagine what a 5 disc changer would look like. It would be as > > big as a bed! Or imagine a room-sized Sony 400 disc changer > > that weighs 3000 lbs when fully loaded...... Nahhhh I think I will > > just hold the CD booklet a little closer to my eyes when I look at > > it. But I suppose using that same logic sitting 2 feet away from > > my 27' TV would be the same as owning a big-screen. ;-) > > > > PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. > To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... > Website: http://www.tadream.net > > From: Gustavo Jobim Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 12:10 am Subject: about Goblins' Club Re: [tadream] Digest Number 764 >A few more albums I'd heartily >recommend are Turn of the Tides (1994), Goblin's Club (1996), and Mars >Polaris (1999). If you would like to hear a more laid-back, contemplative, >and classical-like side of modern TD, try Seven Letters from Tibet (2000). I wouldn't be sure about Goblins' Club. It has its moments, like the first track and the one called Rising Haul in Silence, but I find most of the music there quite forgettable. I rarely play this album, and when I do, I never play the whole CD. I get bored before. Gustavojobim (gustavfj@m...) From: 'Frank Arellano' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Newbie wanting TD reviews Welcome back Jared. It appears that I have picked up the torch where you left it on our other list. Don't mind the scars around my wrists, ankles, back and chest. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Jared White' To: Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 5:18 PM Subject: RE: [tadream] Newbie wantthat would be something nice to do for TD..... > > armin > > > > > > Sure makes me wish the industry had selected the 12' laserdisk > > > as the format for the CD, so that we could still have decent > > > LP-size covers, booklets, pictures etc... > > > > > > > That would make for one heck of a big hole in the dash of my car! > > Just imagine what a 5 disc changer would look like. It would be as > > big as a bed! Or imagine a room-sized Sony 400 disc changer > > that weighs 3000 lbs when fully loaded...... Nahhhh I think I will > > just hold the CD booklet a little closer to my eyes when I look at > > it. But I suppose using that same logic sitting 2 feet away from > > my 27' TV would be the same as owning a big-screen. ;-) > > > > PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. > To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... > Website: http://www.tadream.net > > From: Gustavo Jobim Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 12:10 am Subject: about Goblins' Club Re: [tadream] Digest Number 764 >A few more albums I'd heartily >recommend are Turn of the Tides (1994), Goblin's Club (1996), and Mars >Polaris (1999). If you would like to hear a more laid-back, contemplative, >and classical-like side of modern TD, try Seven Letters from Tibet (2000). I wouldn't be sure about Goblins' Club. It has its moments, like the first track and the one called Rising Haul in Silence, but I find most of the music there quite forgettable. I rarely play this album, and when I do, I never play the whole CD. I get bored before. Gustavojobim (gustavfj@m...) From: 'Frank Arellano' Date: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Newbie wanting TD reviews Welcome back Jared. It appears that I have picked up the torch where you left it on our other list. Don't mind the scars around my wrists, ankles, back and chest. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Jared White' To: Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 5:18 PM Subject: RE: [tadream] Newbie wanting TD reviews > Hi, Borris, > > Welcome to the wild and woolly world of TD fans! > > > > Now after some years I'm rediscovering this band trying to > > decide what to buy etc, so if you can give me some overview that > > would be much appreciated. I have recently got Hyperborea, > > Oasis (Soundtrack), Tyger (which I just had to get as I also > > greatly admire William Blake, although I find the pronunciation of > > the River Thames very funny) & Atem. In a shop handy to me > > there are copies of Optical Race, Le Parc, The Hollywood Years, > > Underwater Sunlight, Green Desert, Alpha Centauri, The Dream > > Mixes I & Electronic Meditations. What would people > > recommend, I would like representative works from all the > > different periods of the Dream. > > Optical Race, Le Parc, and Dream Mixes I are very good landmark albums to > buy if you're still getting a feel for TD's various styles. Optical Race was > the first album TD made after Chris Franke left, and it was the beginning of > a new epoch in TD history. Le Parc was made several years before and was the > last album to feature the talents of Johannes Schmoelling. Dream Mixes I > came out in 1995 featuring Jerome Froese's new dance sensibilities that took > TD's then-current output to a new level. A few more albums I'd heartily > recommend are Turn of the Tides (1994), Goblin's Club (1996), and Mars > Polaris (1999). If you would like to hear a more laid-back, contemplative, > and classical-like side of modern TD, try Seven Letters from Tibet (2000). > > Whatever you do, stay away from Hollywood Years! A worst collection of > 'music' from TD you can't find anywhere, IMHO! > > > If anyone could point me to a good comprehensive site for online > > TD reviews that would be great. > > Well, since I'm one of the principal people 'pissed off' at Glenn Folkvord, > I guess it'd be OK for me to temporarily bury the hatchet and let you know > that he runs a very detailed and well-thought-out electronic music review > site called Electronic Shadows, and the URL for it is > http://www.folkvord.net/electronicshadows . Bear in mind, though, that > Electronic Shadows' reviewers sometimes have very different outlooks on > things, so using their reviews as a guide to the best and worst of modern TD > is not always the best idea. ;) No offense, Glenn.... > > Another site to try is Synth Music Direct > ( http://www.synthmusicdirect.com ), but they seem fixated on 70's/80's TD > clones, so their TD reviews aren't always very useful either (since modern > TD is pretty different from the older material). > > Hope that helps, > > Jared > > > > PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. > To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... > Website: http://www.tadream.net > > From: 'John Marchington' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:56 am Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings Thanks for your comments, Feldon. I've never complained -- at least musically -- about any of the so-called live recordings discussed by you below and I enjoy them all in varying degrees. I do have quite serious reservations about the recording of 'Encore', however, which I have never thought was particularly well managed, with numerous changes to sound levels in places. The remastered version is particularly bad in that regard. Maybe rehearsals were dubbed in and level matching wasn't carried out as accurately as it should have been. I suspect that live recordings will always polarise members of this list. There have already been some who have stated that they wouldn't mind the wrong notes, late entries etc they remember hearing, probably because those mistakes conjure up memories of a generally happy occasion for them and they would be hearing part of a concert they attended -- unadulterated. Others, like me, feel quite differently. (Sadly, as I've mentioned before, I've never heard the band live). I recall hearing a broadcast many years ago of a concert given in the Royal Festival Hall. The Philharmonia Orchestra was conducted by Sir Adrian Boult and the work was the Vaughan Williams 6th symphony. The playing, from one of London's top orchestras under a conductor who knew the work like the back of his hand, was dreadful. There were horn and trumpet fluffs galore, ragged string playing -- you name it. Sir Adrian was very old by this time and one must assume that he no longer had the ability to maintain discipline within the ranks. Those present at the concert must have been cringing. Had that broadcast been issued as a recording, I'm positive nobody would ever have bought it, or those who had without hearing it first would probably have returned it to the shop after the first or second playing. While we undoubtedly all have different levels of tolerance, there are surely limits to it! One thing buying the i-Box set is doing for me is making me appreciate TD's more recent work, which I've never really cared for till now. I immediately went and got out 'Melrose' and played it right through -- and thoroughly enjoyed it for the first time. I must try 'Lily on the Beach', 'Tyranny of Beauty' and 'Goblin's Club' again. ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Feldon Feldon' To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 7:08 AM Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings > >From: 'John Marchington' > > > >I have been following the recent i-Box 'live' arguments with interest and > >can report that such recordings are by no means always as one might imagine > >them to be. > > > >In the late 1970s, Leonard Bernstein took the New York Philharmonic on tour > >which included Japan, and Columbia (now Sony) made a so-called 'live' > >recording ... [where] one can clearly hear changes in tape hiss in the > >opening and slow movements of the symphony, suggesting the editing out of > >moments where the producer felt that the playing was perhaps less than > >ideal > > >One can't help wondering whether TD has adopted a similar approach to its > >live recordings in the past -- and I'm thinking of the original 'Ricochet', > >'Encore', 'Logos', 'Poland', 'Pergamon', 'LiveMiles' etc in saying that, > >let alone the i-Box tracks. > > > >For my part, however, suspecting that such tinkering might have happened > >doesn't in any way detract from my enjoyment of the music, or one's > >impressions of the band's performances of it -- and THAT, at the end of the > >day, is what counts most for me! Indeed, I have found that wrong notes, > >poor playing or other mistakes in recorded performances can become > >increasingly annoying with repeated hearings, and I cannot believe that TD > >concerts are error-free anyway. > > UUUUUUURRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! > > I keep seeing this argument. > > John, you will find very few complaints from this list if Edgar took concert > tapes from the past, maybe found the best playings of different songs, > edited them together, and labeled them PROPERLY as maybe a 2 disc 'the 1981 > Concert Series' for example. This is WITHOUT adding any 1990s/2000s pink > poodle revisionist fluffery. > > People are not upset because Edgar is editing vintage concerts together. > We'd probably be mildly overjoyed if he granted us at least this (and > labeled it as such). > > Instead, he is dusting and fraudulently labeling live concerts which are in > fact 50% or less impressions of the actual concert. > > As you mention, 'Ricochet', 'Encore', 'Logos', 'Poland', 'Pergamon', > 'LiveMiles' are not vanilla recordings of each concert. > > Ricochet was never professed as a live concert. It has pieces from at least > a dozen concerts over that year (or may be a single recording of a concert > for which no tape exists). > > Encore has 3 tracks taken from the 1977 tour, and then 1 track that is > mostly from the tour, but has studio dustings THAT ARE VINTAGE-ACCURATE > (same equipment). > > Logos is a fairly accurate depiction of the October 1982 concert except it > skips over the whole of the Logostypes passage (~24 minutes of unreleased > material which appeared in The Keep and other soundtracks), and nicely > improvised Choronzon, Tangent, and Mojave Plan versions. The intensity of > the guitar work near the end of the concert has been dialed down, and the > White Eagle and Midnight in Tula encores have been cut. > > Poland has simply been edited to cover for power outages that occured at the > Warsaw 1983 concert, as well as to make the concert fit on four 22 minute > sides (vinyl!). > > Pergamon has been well documented on this list. Some is pretty close to what > was played, some is purely studio work, and of course we'll never have the > afternoon show on CD. :( > > And not one minute of Livemiles was played live, as is, in 1986/87. > > > You're not getting serious complaints over Ricochet, Encore, Logos, and > Poland on this list, at least not from me. Sure it would be nice if Edgar > would release the rest of the pieces from these concerts, especially the ~12 > hours of unreleased 1977 material which SHOULD have no copyright issues > unless Virgin has an unprecedented 'live performances' ownership clause in > the contract. > > The complaint you are hearing on this list is that Edgar's definition of a > 'live' release now, in the example of the Perth 1982 'concert' as appeared > on i-Box, is to: > > 1) Perform a 17 minute solo in the studio. > 2) Bridge this into an exact copy of Mojave Plan from the White Eagle master > tapes > 3) Awkwardly bridge this into an exact copy of Convention of the 24 from the > White Eagle master tapes. > 4) Tack on a Pinnacles solo recorded in the studio. > > > Here's another example--Sohoman is supposed to be a Melbourne, Australia > 1982 concert (which, thankfully, exists as Outback Voices in the bootleg > world). It contains: > > 1) About 5-10 minutes of solo work recorded in the studio. > 2) The first ~35 minutes of the concert turned down to about 60% volume and > then 1999 keyboards played on top at full volume, counter to the spirit of > the original music. > 3) Completely removed the guitar solo from Bondy Parade (a 12 minute track) > and then shortened the track to 8 minutes (without the guitar, it's a boring > track so I don't blame him for reactively taking the 2nd step). > 4) Added 5 minutes of solo, recorded in the studio. > > > Do you think either of these accurately represent what was played in 1982? > > Your Leonard Bernstein 70's series may not appease the fans hoping for a > single recording of a favorite show they attended, but it damn well > represents REAL Leonard Bernstein music from the 1970's. > > > Morgan > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. > To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... > Website: http://www.tadream.net > > > From: 'Patrik .' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 10:16 am Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings David wrote: >I agree with most of what you say but there are some times when the bum >notes just spoil it. I am referring in particular to the Fassbender >memorial concert. > > Live Miles - is just not live at all, as I understand...? >Whether it is live or not I think its a great recording. I was surprised it came out near to Tyger and sounded similar. But I will play Livemiles any time over Tyger. ------------------------- I haven´t played Fassbinder Memorial since 1989 when I got my first CD, mine is 12' vinyl, what are we talking about here? Notes out of key, or? Regarding Livemiles; of course it´s a great recording, it´s a studio product! :-))) Regards Patrik _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From: '3N' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 9:09 am Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings Hello! (and sorry for my opinion of this discussion ;)) ) But now nobody not convince me that TD has record any his 'live' records on real live performance. I'm listening to official TD's records very precisely and very close to bootlegs recording. I'm playing keybords, synthesators, guitars, percussion too and I known in technical details how to create music like this . Realy! When I was in 97 on goblin's concert I was very dissatisfied. Because, without Hahveld's percussion and Perica's guitar, all material (oups, sorry - only 99% of material ;))) ) has played from VST. Old Froese sometimes played only acords and make sound effects. It's for me very disgusting. ----- Original Message ----- From: Feldon Feldon To: Cc: Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings > Ricochet was never professed as a live concert. It has pieces from at least > a dozen concerts over that year (or may be a single recording of a concert > for which no tape exists). Wrong. Richochet ONLY bases on ideas from british tour in autumn 75, but all material for this recor TD has rerecording in studio! > > Encore has 3 tracks taken from the 1977 tour, and then 1 track that is > mostly from the tour, but has studio dustings THAT ARE VINTAGE-ACCURATE > (same equipment). Wrong. Encore has ONE track taken from UStour - this is Monolight from Washington performance (from WGTB radio tapes and without any overdubs in sounds). Cherooke bases on many ideas from concerts again, but it is rerecord in studio ;))). CWC and DD never were played on live performace! > > Logos is a fairly accurate depiction of the October 1982 concert except it > skips over the whole of the Logostypes passage (~24 minutes of unreleased > material which appeared in The Keep and other soundtracks), and nicely > improvised Choronzon, Tangent, and Mojave Plan versions. The intensity of > the guitar work near the end of the concert has been dialed down, and the > White Eagle and Midnight in Tula encores have been cut. > > Poland has simply been edited to cover for power outages that occured at the > Warsaw 1983 concert, as well as to make the concert fit on four 22 minute > sides (vinyl!). Sorry... But Poland was record in Amber studio. From polish concert on this albus is only Kordowicz's announcment. In Poland TD has played Poland's material complete differently. I know, because I was on these concerts in december 83 and I have them on my tapes (and of course on CDR ;)) ). In interview published in december 84 in polish NonStop Froese has confess that Franke and Schmoelling corrected in studio majority of parts. > > Pergamon has been well documented on this list. Some is pretty close to what > was played, some is purely studio work, and of course we'll never have the > afternoon show on CD. :( Why?? I have it on CD. > > And not one minute of Livemiles was played live, as is, in 1986/87. You're right! [CUT] > The complaint you are hearing on this list is that Edgar's definition of a > 'live' release now, in the example of the Perth 1982 'concert' as appeared > on i-Box, is to: > > 1) Perform a 17 minute solo in the studio. > 2) Bridge this into an exact copy of Mojave Plan from the White Eagle master > tapes No! MojavePlan (and most tracks on 5th CD) is not from master studio tape! It's from tape, that was prepared for Australian tour in 82. This tape was played as BAGROUND of live performace (not live sequencers!). This technology TD was make from autumn 80. Tracks from 5th CD of i-box was produced for American tour in 88. Do you realy don't hear any differences from origanal albums??? Und so waiter ;))) regards JerzyK PS. I'm fan from Poland. I am fan, big fan since 78, when I heard for first time Cyclone, Encore, Stratosfear and Ricochet. This music always was and is for me lovely and timeless. And I like Rubycon, Phaedra, Atem, Zeit, AlphaCentauri, ForceMajeure, Tangram too. But I hate TD's music from 90th years, but I have it ;))). From: 'James Horecka, AIA' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:30 pm Subject: 'Valley of the Sun' question, etc. I'm a bit bummed with 'i-box' after having listen to it several times through. Oh well. I'll set it aside and pick it up later, perhaps finding a gem or two at that future time. Such is often the case: So I popped in the 'Dream Roots' collection for a listen. I'd not played this set for some time. CD 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... Wow! I was reintroduced to 'Valley of the Sun' again. Very 'Franke.' Great track. Also enjoyed 'Vanishing Blue.' So here is my question: After (admittedly limited) research of net-based discographies, I could not find other variations of either of these tracks on other CDs. Do they exist? (For example, I've heard more than one version of 'Silver Scale,' another of my favorites.) 'Tangentized' or otherwise, I'd love to explore them if they do in fact exist. On a side note: 1. Has the recent radio interview been fully (and cleanly) translated from German and posted to a web page? 2. Always hoping that TD will tour again. One would think that Los Angeles would offer sufficient 'critical mass.' Quite a variety of venues, of various sizes. From the 'Pink Floyd'-sized Rose Bowl (gak, there were a lot of bodies there!!), to more intimate houses (down to 'The Whiskey' and other clubs). The LA basin itself has about 12 million people, but a concert there draws from potential audiences in most western states, maybe 50 million souls or so? Gotta be some fans in that pile. I always enjoy this LIST, mostly in Lurker Mode. James Horecka, AIA, Architect jhorecka@p... http://www.pe.net/~jhorecka Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25687 Re: 'Valley of the Sun' question, etc. Sean Montgomery Tue 1/16/2001 3 KB 25728 Re: 'Valley of the Sun' question, etc. Gabe Yedid Thu 1/18/2001 3 KB 25731 Re: 'Valley of the Sun' question, etc. Sean Montgomery Thu 1/18/2001 2 KB From: 'Hermes Guzman' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 6:40 pm Subject: Re: 'Live' recordings > In tadream@egroups.com, 'Feldon Feldon' wrote: > >From: 'John Marchington' > > > >I have been following the recent i-Box 'live' arguments with > >interest and can report that such recordings are by no means > >always as one might imagine them to be. > > > >In the late 1970s, Leonard Bernstein took the New York > >Philharmonic on tour which included Japan, and Columbia > >(now Sony) made a so-called 'live' recording ... [where] one > >can clearly hear changes in tape hiss in the opening and > >slow movements of the symphony, suggesting the editing out > >of moments where the producer felt that the playing was > >perhaps less than ideal > > > >One can't help wondering whether TD has adopted a similar > >approach to its live recordings in the past -- and I'm > >thinking of the original 'Ricochet', 'Encore', 'Logos', > >'Poland', 'Pergamon', 'LiveMiles' etc in saying that, > >let alone the i-Box tracks. > > > >For my part, however, suspecting that such tinkering > >might have happened doesn't in any way detract from my > >enjoyment of the music, or one's impressions of the > >band's performances of it -- and THAT, at the end of the > >day, is what counts most for me! Indeed, I have found that > >wrong notes, poor playing or other mistakes in recorded > >performances can become increasingly annoying with repeated > >hearings, and I cannot believe that TD concerts are > >error-free anyway. > > UUUUUUURRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! > > I keep seeing this argument. Perhaps that is because there are people in the world who are just as intelligent as you are, but who think differently. > John, you will find very few complaints from this list if Edgar > took concert tapes from the past, maybe found the best playings > of different songs, edited them together, and labeled them PROPERLY > as maybe a 2 disc 'the 1981 Concert Series' for example. This is > WITHOUT adding any 1990s/2000s pink poodle revisionist fluffery. Yep. It'd be great if we'd get 'virgin' intended) concert releases from the golden era. Maybe it'll happen one day. Not everyone on this list, however, excoriates the modern additions to the shows that have been released-no matter how much some rant about it. > People are not upset because Edgar is editing vintage concerts > together. We'd probably be mildly overjoyed if he granted us at > least this (and labeled it as such). > > Instead, he is dusting and fraudulently labeling live concerts > which are in fact 50% or less impressions of the actual concert. 'Fraudulently?' Since these releases all contain material that was *ACTUALLY PERFORMED LIVE* (Perth notwithstanding) where exactly is the fraud? If the criteria is overdubs and studio additions to a live concert constitute fraud, then there are almost *NO* live albums to speak of in the rock world. Better expand that petition drive.... A dangerous word there, 'impressions'. That word implies subjectivity and works both for the listener *and* the creator. Perhaps these releases are intended as *his* impressions of what *he* was feeling/thinking at the time. Of course, this does not explain _The Perth Tapes_...or does it? However, I do concede the point that some of us (myself included to a degree) wish for undoctored shows and are in that respect justifiably upset about what has been released. But it is a vain and fruitless anger bordering on hypocrasy if when you purchase it you *know* that they are not the actual shows. For those who stand by their convictions and refrain from purchasing these items; points for logical consistency. But then your complaints become those of the 'Coulda, shoulda, woulda' whine variety that *all* fans engage in from time to time to no real result. > As you mention, 'Ricochet', 'Encore', 'Logos', 'Poland', > 'Pergamon', 'LiveMiles' are not vanilla recordings of each concert. > > Ricochet was never professed as a live concert. It has pieces from > at least a dozen concerts over that year (or may be a single > recording of a concert for which no tape exists). Ricochet_ *was* presented (and advertised) as a live album! It was edited from basically 3 shows with additional studio overdubs (notably the drums and the piano intro to pt.2), and is a great *impression* of the late `74/early `75 shows. > Encore has 3 tracks taken from the 1977 tour, and then 1 track that > is mostly from the tour, but has studio dustings THAT ARE > VINTAGE-ACCURATE (same equipment). Ummmm...more than studio dustings, I'm afraid. 'Desert Dream' is basically a studio creation. It's based on various studio sessions (including the _Oedips Tyrannus_ material) the band had lying around. All of the remaining tracks have studio work on them as well, though they are faithful *impressions* of actual tracks performed live. > Logos is a fairly accurate depiction of the October 1982 concert > except it skips over the whole of the Logostypes passage > (~24 minutes of unreleased material which appeared in The Keep and > other soundtracks), and nicely improvised Choronzon, Tangent, and > Mojave Plan versions. The intensity of the guitar work near the end > of the concert has been dialed down, and the White Eagle and > Midnight in Tula encores have been cut. _Logos_ is the second set of the Dominion show with the first set opening theme grafted on in place of the 'Mojave Plan' excerpt. There was *NO* guitar performed at any of the `82 UK Winter shows! > Poland has simply been edited to cover for power outages that > occured at the Warsaw 1983 concert, as well as to make the concert > fit on four 22 minute sides (vinyl!). _Poland_ was basically re-performed in the studio due to the aforementioned problems. I've always felt that the side edit between 'Poland' and 'Tangent' should've been corrected for the CD release, as it was for _Logos_. > Pergamon has been well documented on this list. Some is pretty > close to what was played, some is purely studio work, and of > course we'll never have the afternoon show on CD. :( Pt. 1-Fairly faithful to the first half of the second set, with edits, studio dustings and punch-ins. Pt. 2-Studio creation loosely based on some of the ideas in the second halves of both sets. And I'm with the growing consensus of old fart collectors who believe there was no afternoon show. Mislabled tapes are the most likely culprit here (as usual.) > And not one minute of Livemiles was played live, as is, in 1986/87. Don't get me started on this again (although 'Caspian Sea' and 'Velvet Autumn/Sunnyvale' are fairly accurate *impressions* of two themes from the Berlin show.) > You're not getting serious complaints over Ricochet, Encore, Logos, > and Poland on this list, at least not from me. Sure it would be > nice if Edgar would release the rest of the pieces from these > concerts, especially the ~12 hours of unreleased 1977 material > which SHOULD have no copyright issues unless Virgin has an > unprecedented 'live performances' ownership clause in the contract. They call them *Bootlegs* precisely because the record company owns the rights to the live performances by bands under contract, including material performed that has not been released. > The complaint you are hearing on this list is that Edgar's > definition of a 'live' release now, in the example of the Perth > 1982 'concert' as appeared on i-Box, is to: > > 1) Perform a 17 minute solo in the studio. > 2) Bridge this into an exact copy of Mojave Plan from the White > Eagle master tapes > 3) Awkwardly bridge this into an exact copy of Convention of the 24 > from the White Eagle master tapes. > 4) Tack on a Pinnacles solo recorded in the studio. Did some of you actually listen to this disc? The correct order (and source!) of the tracks is as follows: 1) 'Snake Bath' source (twice as long and different from _Kamikaze 89_) 2) 'Cryo Lab' bridge from the Freidenskonziert with 'Specific Gravity of Smile' 3) 'Convention of the 24' obscured by overdubs (now *there's* a title...:)) 4) 'Mojave Plan' studio version with poorly edited intro If you're going to offer a critique, then please at least get the details right first. It helps to present a stronger argument that way. > Here's another example--Sohoman is supposed to be a Melbourne, > Australia 1982 concert (which, thankfully, exists as Outback Voices > in the bootleg world). It contains: > > 1) About 5-10 minutes of solo work recorded in the studio. > 2) The first ~35 minutes of the concert turned down to about 60% > volume and then 1999 keyboards played on top at full volume, > counter to the spirit of the original music. > 3) Completely removed the guitar solo from Bondy Parade (a 12 > minute track) and then shortened the track to 8 minutes (without > the guitar, it's a boring track so I don't blame him for reactively > taking the 2nd step). > 4) Added 5 minutes of solo, recorded in the studio. *sigh* Again from the top: 1) *NO* new material intro; it starts as the concert did with just a *slight* change in the opening chord 2) The enitre concert (see below for exception) as performed with some of the overdubs forward prescence due to the difference in timbre, *not* 'turned down to 60% volume'. 2) 'Bondi Parade' has the guitar solo removed and the last 3+ mins. changed to a modern ending. > Do you think either of these accurately represent what was played > in 1982? If by accuracy you mean 'as performed'-then obviously not. But by the *impression* standard you opened your polemic with-then _Sohoman_-yes; Perth-no (with a small caveat.) I'm surprised you left out _Soundmill Navigator_, though. But you already know what my *impression* of that one is, don't you? goozer Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25690 Re: 'Live' recordings Steve Tue 1/16/2001 3 KB From: 'Piotr Sulkowki II' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 6:15 pm Subject: Odp: [tadream] 'Live' recordings Jerzy'K cos Ty i tutaj :) Pozdrawiam Piotr S. Millennium > Hello! > (and sorry for my opinion of this discussion ;)) ) > > But now nobody not convince me that TD has record any his 'live' records on > real live performance. I'm listening to official TD's records very precisely > and very close to bootlegs recording. I'm playing keybords, synthesators, > guitars, percussion too and I known in technical details how to create music > like this . Realy! When I was in 97 on goblin's concert I was very > dissatisfied. Because, without Hahveld's percussion and Perica's guitar, all > material (oups, sorry - only 99% of material ;))) ) has played from VST. Old > Froese sometimes played only acords and make sound effects. It's for me very > disgusting. Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25697 Re: 'Live' recordings Lord Rayden Wed 1/17/2001 3 KB 25715 Re: 'Live' recordings Bag Thu 1/18/2001 2 KB From: Sean Montgomery Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Valley of the Sun' question, etc. 'James Horecka, AIA' wrote: > Wow! I was reintroduced to 'Valley of the Sun' again. Very 'Franke.' Great > track. Also enjoyed 'Vanishing Blue.' > > So here is my question: > > After (admittedly limited) research of net-based discographies, I could not > find other variations of either of these tracks on other CDs. Do they exist? Nope. The tracks on disc 5 of Dream Roots are truly unreleased. They were composed during the latter part of 1985, after Johannes left the band but before Paul joined. They had been shelved for over a decade. And yeah, Valley of the Sun is a really good piece, a must for fans of mid-80s TD. Silver Scale was a piece written for TDs 1980-81 live shows. The first three minutes of it appeared on the Wavelength soundtrack, under the title 'Church Theme'. But a complete version of the original piece has yet to be released in official form (The version on Tangents had some overdubbing). Apart from Tangents, it also appeared on the 'Valentine Wheels' live CD, but this version was performed in 1997, and doesn't have the richness and warmth of the original (IMO). TDI could really mend relations with the fans if they'd put out an undoctored 1981 concert on disc. -- SEAN MONTGOMERY T O P I X / Mad Dog http://www.topix.com/~sean From: 'David Foster' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 7:10 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] 'Live' recordings Patrick wrote > I haven´t played Fassbinder Memorial since 1989 when I got my first CD, mine > is 12' vinyl, what are we talking about here? Notes out of key, or? > > Regarding Livemiles; of course it´s a great recording, it´s a studio > product! :-))) We are talking bum note and off key in a crucial part of the music. Apart from that good David From: 'Gary Jenkins' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 7:26 pm Subject: Shepherd's Bush Empire Hi to all you UK members It's offical TD live at the Shepherd'S Bush Empire on May 12th ticket's on sale on line at www.ticketweb.co.uk priced at £18.50 hope to see you all there. Cheers Gary. Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25692 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Hermes Guzman Tue 1/16/2001 2 KB 25700 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Michael A Jean Wed 1/17/2001 3 KB 25693 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Glynn Naughton Tue 1/16/2001 3 KB 25694 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Glynn Naughton Tue 1/16/2001 3 KB 25708 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Gary Jenkins Wed 1/17/2001 2 KB 25710 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Rolf =?iso-8859-1?Q?Elfstr=F6 Wed 1/17/2001 2 KB 25721 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Gary Jenkins Thu 1/18/2001 2 KB 25696 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire James Williams Wed 1/17/2001 3 KB 25701 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Patrik . Wed 1/17/2001 2 KB From: 'Steve' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 7:53 pm Subject: RE: [tadream] Re: 'Live' recordings goozer said: > Ricochet_ *was* presented (and advertised) as a live album! It was > edited from basically 3 shows with additional studio overdubs > (notably the drums and the piano intro to pt.2), and is a great > *impression* of the late `74/early `75 shows. I'm sure that when Ricochet was released it was made known that this wasn't a straight-forward concert album but rather an album edited together from various concerts. Whether this fact was mentioned in advertising, press releases or interviews I don't know/can't remember, but I do remember thinking at the time that it seemed a pretty weird way of releasing a live album. Steve http://www.craftman.co.uk/ http://www.rotties-r-us.co.uk From: 'Feldon Feldon' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: 'Live' recordings >From: 'Hermes Guzman' > > > > Instead, he is dusting and fraudulently labeling live concerts > > which are in fact 50% or less impressions of the actual concert. > >'Fraudulently?' Since these releases all contain material >that was *ACTUALLY PERFORMED LIVE* (Perth notwithstanding) where >exactly is the fraud? If the criteria is overdubs and studio >additions to a live concert constitute fraud, then there are almost >*NO* live albums to speak of in the rock world. Better expand that >petition drive.... The word Fraud applies to Sohoman, which is 20% Edgar solo, Soundmill Navigator, which is over 30% Edgar solo, and the aforementioned Perth which is over 35% Edgar solo and the rest studio work. At this rate, the next 'concert album' will be 50% Edgar solo with a track from Destination Berlin mixed in to give it that TD flair. Zoning is also fraudulent, in that it doesn't share a single note in common with the 1987 soundtrack for the film (for which I finally have a CDR). Don't you find the labeling of Sohoman offensive? >But it is a vain and fruitless >anger bordering on hypocrasy if when you purchase it you *know* that >they are not the actual shows. For those who stand by their >convictions and refrain from purchasing these items; points for >logical consistency. But then your complaints become those of the >'Coulda, shoulda, woulda' whine variety that *all* fans >engage in from time to time to no real result. I've chosen not to buy Sohoman, i-Box or Soundmill Navigator, instead listening to a friend's copy of each for evaluation purposes. I listened to Seven Letters in a music store and skipped it. I purchased Antique Dreams after a couple of positive notes on this list and I don't regret it. So Edgar has 1 sale from me in the last 2 years, and that's the album where he narrowly hit the 51% un-f***ed Tangerine Dream vintage recording percentage. > > As you mention, 'Ricochet', 'Encore', 'Logos', 'Poland', > > 'Pergamon', 'LiveMiles' are not vanilla recordings of each concert. > > > > Ricochet was never professed as a live concert. It has pieces from > > at least a dozen concerts over that year (or may be a single > > recording of a concert for which no tape exists). > >Ricochet_ *was* presented (and advertised) as a live album! It was >edited from basically 3 shows with additional studio overdubs >(notably the drums and the piano intro to pt.2), and is a great >*impression* of the late `74/early `75 shows. Ech. I forgot it was labeled and presented as Live. Well, I can blame Edgar for recent transgressions, but I guess we have to put it on all the band members (assuming they got involved) for Logos, Ricochet and Encore. > > Encore has 3 tracks taken from the 1977 tour, and then 1 track that > > is mostly from the tour, but has studio dustings THAT ARE > > VINTAGE-ACCURATE (same equipment). > >Ummmm...more than studio dustings, I'm afraid. 'Desert Dream' is >basically a studio creation. It's based on various studio >sessions (including the _Oedips Tyrannus_ material) the band had >lying around. All of the remaining tracks have studio work on them as >well, though they are faithful *impressions* of actual tracks >performed live. Ok. > > Logos is a fairly accurate depiction of the October 1982 concert > > except it skips over the whole of the Logostypes passage > > (~24 minutes of unreleased material which appeared in The Keep and > > other soundtracks), and nicely improvised Choronzon, Tangent, and > > Mojave Plan versions. The intensity of the guitar work near the end > > of the concert has been dialed down, and the White Eagle and > > Midnight in Tula encores have been cut. > >_Logos_ is the second set of the Dominion show with the first set >opening theme grafted on in place of the 'Mojave Plan' excerpt. >There was *NO* guitar performed at any of the `82 UK Winter shows! Mmkay. So all the guitar sounds were keyboard? Learn something every day! > > Poland has simply been edited to cover for power outages that > > occured at the Warsaw 1983 concert, as well as to make the concert > > fit on four 22 minute sides (vinyl!). > >_Poland_ was basically re-performed in the studio due to the >aforementioned problems. I've always felt that the side edit >between 'Poland' and 'Tangent' should've been >corrected for the CD release, as it was for _Logos_. Agreed on the Poland-Tangent bridge. I didn't know it was reperformed. I do know that the Poland track mutated quite a bit through 1983, as featured on a Tokyo 83 tape I have. Poland on there has mushroomed to 28 minutes. Honestly, the Warsaw (studio if you will) version is more polished. The same can be said for anyone who has heard the Logos intro as it was played in late 1981. It was 10 minutes before they whittled it down to the polished 5 1/2 minute version on Logos and any other fall 1982 concert. >And I'm with the growing consensus of old fart collectors who >believe there was no afternoon show. Mislabled tapes are the most >likely culprit here (as usual.) Well Hermes, the part that throws me is the White Cloths tape labeled part III. It has a 10 minute passage completely unlike anything I've ever heard. Any opinions? > > You're not getting serious complaints over Ricochet, Encore, Logos, > > and Poland on this list, at least not from me. Sure it would be > > nice if Edgar would release the rest of the pieces from these > > concerts, especially the ~12 hours of unreleased 1977 material > > which SHOULD have no copyright issues unless Virgin has an > > unprecedented 'live performances' ownership clause in the contract. > >They call them *Bootlegs* precisely because the record company owns >the rights to the live performances by bands under contract, >including material performed that has not been released. So that's why Edgar is producing these fictionalized concert recordings and why we'll never see untouched recordings? > > The complaint you are hearing on this list is that Edgar's > > definition of a 'live' release now, in the example of the Perth > > 1982 'concert' as appeared on i-Box, is to: > > > > 1) Perform a 17 minute solo in the studio. > > 2) Bridge this into an exact copy of Mojave Plan from the White > > Eagle master tapes > > 3) Awkwardly bridge this into an exact copy of Convention of the 24 > > from the White Eagle master tapes. > > 4) Tack on a Pinnacles solo recorded in the studio. > >Did some of you actually listen to this disc? The correct order (and >source!) of the tracks is as follows: >1) 'Snake Bath' source (twice as long and different from >_Kamikaze 89_) >2) 'Cryo Lab' bridge from the Freidenskonziert with >'Specific Gravity of Smile' >3) 'Convention of the 24' obscured by overdubs (now >*there's* a title...:)) >4) 'Mojave Plan' studio version with poorly edited intro > >If you're going to offer a critique, then please at least get the >details right first. It helps to present a stronger argument that way. heh. Well, I fast forwarded through most of it. That's for clearing up. > > Here's another example--Sohoman is supposed to be a Melbourne, > > Australia 1982 concert (which, thankfully, exists as Outback Voices > > in the bootleg world). It contains: > > > > 1) About 5-10 minutes of solo work recorded in the studio. > > 2) The first ~35 minutes of the concert turned down to about 60% > > volume and then 1999 keyboards played on top at full volume, > > counter to the spirit of the original music. > > 3) Completely removed the guitar solo from Bondy Parade (a 12 > > minute track) and then shortened the track to 8 minutes (without > > the guitar, it's a boring track so I don't blame him for reactively > > taking the 2nd step). > > 4) Added 5 minutes of solo, recorded in the studio. > >*sigh* Again from the top: >1) *NO* new material intro; it starts as the concert did with just a >*slight* change in the opening chord >2) The enitre concert (see below for exception) as performed with >some of the overdubs forward prescence due to the difference in >timbre, *not* 'turned down to 60% volume'. >2) 'Bondi Parade' has the guitar solo removed and the last 3+ >mins. changed to a modern ending. -Morgan n.p. Valentine Wheels (the bagpipes part!) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25695 Re: 'Live' recordings Hermes Guzman Wed 1/17/2001 8 KB From: 'Hermes Guzman' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 8:51 pm Subject: Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire --- In tadream@egroups.com, 'Gary Jenkins' wrote: > Hi to all you UK members It's offical TD live at the Shepherd'S Bush > Empire on May 12th ticket's on sale on line at www.ticketweb.co.uk > priced at £18.50 hope to see you all there. > Cheers Gary. $@^*%#!!. Now how can I convince my lovely new bride that attending this show would be a perfect birthday gift for me.... goozer (who attended both of the previous SB shows and is seriously jonesing to go back to London!) Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25700 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Michael A Jean Wed 1/17/2001 3 KB From: 'Glynn Naughton' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 9:38 pm Subject: Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire --- In tadream@egroups.com, 'Gary Jenkins' wrote: > Hi to all you UK members It's offical TD live at the Shepherd'S Bush > Empire on May 12th ticket's on sale on line at www.ticketweb.co.uk > priced at £18.50 hope to see you all there. > Cheers Gary. Wa-hay! Well, I just bought my ticket :-) First time I've bought anything on the Web. It's gonna be strange going to a TD show on a light evening. They usually seem to play in the UK in winter. (Of the 6 TD shows I've seen, 4 were in November and 2 in March.) We should arrange another pre-show get-together as per the legendary 1996 Shepherds Bush show. Glynn From: 'Glynn Naughton' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 9:42 pm Subject: Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire --- In tadream@egroups.com, 'Gary Jenkins' wrote: > Hi to all you UK members It's offical TD live at the Shepherd'S Bush > Empire on May 12th ticket's on sale on line at www.ticketweb.co.uk > priced at £18.50 hope to see you all there. > Cheers Gary. Wa-hay! Just bought my ticket over the Web. It's gonna be strange going to a TD show on a light spring evening; they usually seem to play here in winter. (Of the 6 TD shows I've seen, 4 were in November and 2 in March.) We should arrange a pre-show get-together as per the legandary 1996 Shepherds Bush show. Glynn Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25708 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Gary Jenkins Wed 1/17/2001 2 KB 25710 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Rolf =?iso-8859-1?Q?Elfstr=F6 Wed 1/17/2001 2 KB 25721 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Gary Jenkins Thu 1/18/2001 2 KB From: 'Hermes Guzman' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:14 am Subject: Re: 'Live' recordings > In tadream@egroups.com, 'Feldon Feldon' wrote: > >From: 'Hermes Guzman' > > >From: 'Feldon Feldon' > > > > > Instead, he is dusting and fraudulently labeling live concerts > > > which are in fact 50% or less impressions of the actual concert. > > > >'Fraudulently?' Since these releases all contain material > >that was *ACTUALLY PERFORMED LIVE* (Perth notwithstanding) where > >exactly is the fraud? If the criteria is overdubs and studio > >additions to a live concert constitute fraud, then there are almost > >*NO* live albums to speak of in the rock world. Better expand that > >petition drive.... > > The word Fraud applies to Sohoman, which is 20% Edgar solo, > Soundmill Navigator, which is over 30% Edgar solo, and the > aforementioned Perth which is over 35% Edgar solo and the rest > studio work. At this rate, the next 'concert album' will be 50% > Edgar solo with a track from Destination Berlin mixed in to give > it that TD flair. Zoning is also fraudulent, in that it doesn't > share a single note in common with the 1987 soundtrack for the > film (for which I finally have a CDR). > > Don't you find the labeling of Sohoman offensive? So we've gone from a '50% Standard' in your first post to a '20% Standard'? No, I don't feel offended by _Sohoman_. And again you miss the point (fine as it is): with the exception of _Perth_ (which meets your 50% standard...) these CDs have the *original concert* included ('Bondi' edit noted.) The 'Edgar solo' material is in *addition* to this, not in place of it (again, 'Bondi' edit noted.) Yes, I freely admit that to some I may be splitting semantic hairs. But given the *complete* history of live releases by TD, I feel I'm on rather solid ground. As for _Zoning_, you are in error there as well. No, it's *not* the original '87 score. But it *is* the new score commissioned for the re- release on video by the film studio! And since nowhere does it claim to be from '87, the fraud is what exaclty? > >But it is a vain and fruitless anger bordering on hypocrasy if > >when you purchase it you *know* that they are not the actual > >shows. For those who stand by their convictions and refrain from > >purchasing these items; points for logical consistency. But then > >your complaints become those of the 'Coulda, shoulda, woulda' > >whine variety that *all* fans engage in from time to time to no > >real result. > > I've chosen not to buy Sohoman, i-Box or Soundmill Navigator, > instead listening to a friend's copy of each for evaluation > purposes. I listened to Seven Letters in a music store and skipped > it. I purchased Antique Dreams after a couple of positive notes on > this list and I don't regret it. So Edgar has 1 sale from me in the > last 2 years, and that's the album where he narrowly hit the 51% > un-f***ed Tangerine Dream vintage recording percentage. Now we're back to the '50% Standard'. Points deducted for failure to maintain logical consistency in your argument. ;) Funny, _AD_ was slightly dissapointing to me (see review.) What about _Seven..._ turned you off? > > > As you mention, 'Ricochet', 'Encore', 'Logos', 'Poland', > > > 'Pergamon', 'LiveMiles' are not vanilla recordings of each > > >concert. > > > > > > Ricochet was never professed as a live concert. It has pieces > > > from at least a dozen concerts over that year (or may be a > > > single recording of a concert for which no tape exists). > > > >Ricochet_ *was* presented (and advertised) as a live album! It was > >edited from basically 3 shows with additional studio overdubs > >(notably the drums and the piano intro to pt.2), and is a great > >*impression* of the late `74/early `75 shows. > > Ech. I forgot it was labeled and presented as Live. Well, I can > blame Edgar for recent transgressions, but I guess we have to put > it on all the band members (assuming they got involved) for Logos, > Ricochet and Encore. On _Ricochet_ the drums were Chris, additional keys overdubed mainly by Peter after he rejoined them. +++++ > > > Logos is a fairly accurate depiction of the October 1982 concert > > > except it skips over the whole of the Logostypes passage > > > (~24 minutes of unreleased material which appeared in The Keep > > > and other soundtracks), and nicely improvised Choronzon, > > > Tangent, and Mojave Plan versions. The intensity of the guitar > > > work near the end of the concert has been dialed down, and the > > > White Eagle and Midnight in Tula encores have been cut. > > > >_Logos_ is the second set of the Dominion show with the first set > >opening theme grafted on in place of the 'Mojave Plan' excerpt. > >There was *NO* guitar performed at any of the `82 UK Winter shows! > > Mmkay. So all the guitar sounds were keyboard? Learn something > every day! The 'guitar sounds' are actually from Johannes. > > > Poland has simply been edited to cover for power outages that > > > occured at the Warsaw 1983 concert, as well as to make the > > > concert fit on four 22 minute sides (vinyl!). > > > >_Poland_ was basically re-performed in the studio due to the > >aforementioned problems. I've always felt that the side edit > >between 'Poland' and 'Tangent' should've been > >corrected for the CD release, as it was for _Logos_. > > Agreed on the Poland-Tangent bridge. I didn't know it was > reperformed. I do know that the Poland track mutated quite a bit > through 1983, as featured on a Tokyo 83 tape I have. Poland on > there has mushroomed to 28 minutes. Honestly, the Warsaw (studio if > you will) version is more polished. The same can be said for anyone > who has heard the Logos intro as it was played in late 1981. It was > 10 minutes before they whittled it down to the polished 5 > 1/2 minute version on Logos and any other fall 1982 concert. The 'Poland' version from the actual Warsaw concert is also 28+ mins. The Tokyo version is essentially the same. > >And I'm with the growing consensus of old fart collectors who > >believe there was no afternoon show. Mislabled tapes are the most > >likely culprit here (as usual.) > > Well Hermes, the part that throws me is the White Cloths tape > labeled part III. It has a 10 minute passage completely unlike > anything I've ever heard. Any opinions? You're not referring to the encore, are you? I don't have the tapes here at work. ++++++ > > > >They call them *Bootlegs* precisely because the record company owns > >the rights to the live performances by bands under contract, > >including material performed that has not been released. > > So that's why Edgar is producing these fictionalized concert > recordings and why we'll never see untouched recordings? Nah. He just wants to mess with our minds!;) There are too many possible explinations as to why we're not getting the goodies. 'Stupid Record Company Tricks' and 'Visionary is my middle name' are leading candidates, however.;) goozer From: 'James Williams' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 10:41 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire I second this. I remember when being on the cs.uwp.edu mailing list when this was arranged but I didn't make it because of traffic. The meeting took place in the Moon on the Green pub, didn't it? I don't contribute to this list much but it would be great to meet all the frequenters James ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Glynn Naughton' To: Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 9:38 PM Subject: [tadream] Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire --- In tadream@egroups.com, 'Gary Jenkins' wrote: > Hi to all you UK members It's offical TD live at the Shepherd'S Bush > Empire on May 12th ticket's on sale on line at www.ticketweb.co.uk > priced at £18.50 hope to see you all there. > Cheers Gary. Wa-hay! Well, I just bought my ticket :-) First time I've bought anything on the Web. It's gonna be strange going to a TD show on a light evening. They usually seem to play in the UK in winter. (Of the 6 TD shows I've seen, 4 were in November and 2 in March.) We should arrange another pre-show get-together as per the legendary 1996 Shepherds Bush show. Glynn PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... Website: http://www.tadream.net From: 'Lord Rayden' Date: Tue Jan 16, 2001 10:13 pm Subject: RE: [tadream] 'Live' recordings JerzyK szerzy wlasciwe poglady ! El-Krucjata rozpoczela sie :) Go 3N Go ! Rayden , > > Jerzy'K cos Ty i tutaj :) > > > Pozdrawiam > > Piotr S. Millennium > > > Hello! > > (and sorry for my opinion of this discussion ;)) ) > > > > But now nobody not convince me that TD has record any his 'live' records > on > > real live performance. I'm listening to official TD's records very > precisely > > and very close to bootlegs recording. I'm playing keybords, > synthesators, > > guitars, percussion too and I known in technical details how to create > music > > like this . Realy! When I was in 97 on goblin's concert I was very > > dissatisfied. Because, without Hahveld's percussion and Perica's guitar, > all > > material (oups, sorry - only 99% of material ;))) ) has played from VST. > Old > > Froese sometimes played only acords and make sound effects. It's for me > very > > disgusting. > > > , > Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25715 Re: 'Live' recordings Bag Thu 1/18/2001 2 KB From: 'Frank Arellano' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 3:05 am Subject: Fw: [beyond_em] Live Miles ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Frank Arellano' To: Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 10:12 AM Subject: [beyond_em] Live Miles > > > You know I've been thinking about Live Miles and what I've been thinking > about is that I've heard it been said that the concert in Albuquerque was > with an introduction in the Spanish language. I kind of find it hard to > believe it, because I grew up there and even though Spanish is pretty common > there, English is the primary language. Hermes or you Steve [or anyone > else], I seem to recall that you guys said that you actually went to the > concert there in 86', can you tell me which venue it was played at and why > Spanish would have been spoken. > > > The Mini Moog will cut through concrete. > From: 'Feldon Feldon' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 3:32 am Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: 'Live' recordings >From: 'Hermes Guzman' > > >So we've gone from a '50% Standard' in your first post to a '20% >Standard'? No, I don't feel offended by _Sohoman_. And again you miss >the point (fine as it is): with the exception of _Perth_ (which meets >your 50% standard...) these CDs have the *original concert* included >('Bondi' edit noted.) The 'Edgar solo' material is in *addition* to >this, not in place of it (again, 'Bondi' edit noted.) Yes, I freely >admit that to some I may be splitting semantic hairs. But given the >*complete* history of live releases by TD, I feel I'm on rather solid >ground. At this point I've argued too much and just clouded the list beyond any semblence of TD fandom. I was thinking of that driving home. It seems as if every time I try to take some measure or steps to pull back from the TD bashing, I get drawn further into it. A lack of self-discipline or tact I suppose. >As for _Zoning_, you are in error there as well. No, it's *not* the >original '87 score. But it *is* the new score commissioned for the re- >release on video by the film studio! And since nowhere does it claim >to be from '87, the fraud is what exaclty? I was not aware that it was for a re-release of the movie. It's still a boring release. The title and end themes, composed largely by Jerome if my knowledge of his composing style is worth a shit, are the saving graces. Then again, the 1987 soundtrack wasn't that great either to be real honest. > > I've chosen not to buy Sohoman, i-Box or Soundmill Navigator, > > instead listening to a friend's copy of each for evaluation > > purposes. I listened to Seven Letters in a music store and skipped > > it. I purchased Antique Dreams after a couple of positive notes on > > this list and I don't regret it. So Edgar has 1 sale from me in the > > last 2 years, and that's the album where he narrowly hit the 51% > > un-f***ed Tangerine Dream vintage recording percentage. > >Now we're back to the '50% Standard'. Points deducted for failure to >maintain logical consistency in your argument. ;) I wasn't aware that there was some responsibility on my shoulders to impress someone or have a strong debate point. I'm not trying to win the gold trophy in anything. And the 50% thing is how I decide on this concert stuff. To me, Sohoman, Soundmill Navigator, and Perth contain less than 50% undoctored material. >Funny, _AD_ was slightly dissapointing to me (see review.) Well, Edgar thought he could stomach his distaste with the old material long enough to produce Antique Dreams, but he could not. At the last minute the scope changed to include quite a bit of 1986+ material. There's just enough on there (51%) that I don't feel I wasted the money. >What about _Seven..._ turned you off? Not interested in an entire CD of what amounts to what are normally bridges during TD concerts. I stood in a music store (Soundwaves) and listened to the majority of it. > > >There was *NO* guitar performed at any of the `82 UK Winter shows! > > > > Mmkay. So all the guitar sounds were keyboard? Learn something > > every day! > >The 'guitar sounds' are actually from Johannes. So it was his decision to scale back the wildness of the performance and cut out passages near the end of the concert? So I guess Johannes is a revisionist as well. >The 'Poland' version from the actual Warsaw concert is also 28+ mins. >The Tokyo version is essentially the same. It's only 17 minutes on the Poland CD. So the Poland CD is a lot less like the actual concert than I believed. Hrmmph. Well, as hypocritical (flame away!) as it may seem, I've grown rather attached to the version they released on CD, as crippled/edited/tangentized/watered-down as it may be. The playing of Tokyo compared to the playing on the CD release of Poland are night-and-day different to my ears. This is why I want to just pull out of this god damn argument. I'm honestly getting so worn out on TD with all this I might unsubscribe. I'd be hell on wheels if I joined the Star Wars mailing list! My unsubscription (?) from this list has already been called for a few times in the past. I also know that if people judged me solely from their exposure to me on this list, I wouldn't blame them for having serious prejudices. I'm an asshole mostly online. In real life, it's a bit of a different story. > > Well Hermes, the part that throws me is the White Cloths tape > > labeled part III. It has a 10 minute passage completely unlike > > anything I've ever heard. Any opinions? > >You're not referring to the encore, are you? I don't have the tapes >here at work. No. Listen to 28:44-45:30 on White Cloths III. I've never heard any other 01.31.81 tape sound like this. Then again I've shown my limited knowledge quite a bit now haven't I, so I may be off my rocker here too... > > >They call them *Bootlegs* precisely because the record company owns > > >the rights to the live performances by bands under contract, > > >including material performed that has not been released. > > > > So that's why Edgar is producing these fictionalized concert > > recordings and why we'll never see untouched recordings? > >Nah. He just wants to mess with our minds!;) Then I stand by my original statement a few weeks ago. Edgar should not bother. Just leave the concerts in the vaults, rather than tainting their good names. Morgan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From: 'Michael A Jean' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 4:01 am Subject: RE: [tadream] Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Maybe I can do the same... ;^) (I mean convince MY new wife....) MJ > > $@^*%#!!. Now how can I convince my lovely new bride that attending > this show would be a perfect birthday gift for me.... > > goozer (who attended both of the previous SB shows and is seriously > jonesing to go back to London!) > > > > PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. > To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... > Website: http://www.tadream.net > > > From: 'Patrik .' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 9:17 am Subject: Re: [tadream] Shepherd's Bush Empire Great news! I´m all set. Got my confirmation 2 minutes ago. See you all there! Patrik, Stockholm _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From: 'Jared White' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 6:26 am Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: 'Live' recordings ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Feldon Feldon' > This is why I want to just pull out of this god damn argument. I'm honestly > getting so worn out on TD with all this I might unsubscribe. I'd be hell on > wheels if I joined the Star Wars mailing list! My unsubscription (?) from > this list has already been called for a few times in the past. I also know > that if people judged me solely from their exposure to me on this list, I > wouldn't blame them for having serious prejudices. I'm an asshole mostly > online. In real life, it's a bit of a different story. I understand completely. Sometimes I worry that I come across as a complete jerk on mailing lists since I tend not to post stuff unless I get 'ticked off' by something I come across and jump into an argument. I just don't have the time and energy to chit-chat and chew the fat most of the time, but somehow I manage to find the time to argue with somebody. ;) You know, if you want to pull out of this argument, just do it! No one's forcing you to write anything. I'd hate to see you go for good 'cause you got sick of a discussion. BTW, much as I hate to admit it, I've been agreeing with a lot of what you've been saying lately. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that Edgar's been suffering from the talent but no taste syndrome the past few years. How he can do some brilliant stuff and almost at the same time put out utter s**t is beyond me. Frustrating, to say the least. Anyway, I wish you luck no matter what you end up doing, and, folks, perhaps we can move on to some other subjects at this point? This discussion's startin' ta irritate me. :) Take care, Jared From: 'Greg' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 1:24 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: 'Live' recordings I really do agree with you, I mean how can we justify the things TD is doing now, I mean honestly has the artist become so involved in making money that he/they will release old concert material that are really studio releases and rewrite (tangentize) musical material right over lower volume concert material? It seems TD is using these releases of material with incredibly low originally unreleased content to finance their endeavors of original new material not many people seem to want to buy. It may seem like a hole-in-one to make money but as good as these concert recordings sound for me (a person who does not trade concerts and such), I have to hold back and ask myself, what am I really going to get that isn't just marketing tricks? We need people on this list who at least tell it straight. I know what live is.. gosh.. Greg H > This is why I want to just pull out of this god damn argument. I'm honestly > getting so worn out on TD with all this I might unsubscribe. I'd be hell on > wheels if I joined the Star Wars mailing list! My unsubscription (?) from > this list has already been called for a few times in the past. I also know > that if people judged me solely from their exposure to me on this list, I > wouldn't blame them for having serious prejudices. I'm an asshole mostly > online. In real life, it's a bit of a different story. > Morgan From: 'Phil Wingfield' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire We should arrange a pre-show get-together as per the legandary 1996 Shepherds Bush show. Glynn ====== I'm in From: 'Paul Fellows' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:32 pm Subject: Re : [tadream] Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Hi all, Yeah, I was there, but as I didn't have Internet at the time, I didn't know any of you! Now I'm hoping that the rumours of them playing in France are true... Paul ---------- >De : 'Glynn Naughton' >À : tadream@egroups.com >Objet : [tadream] Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire >Date : Mar 16 jan 2001 22:42 > > --- In tadream@egroups.com, 'Gary Jenkins' wrote: >> Hi to all you UK members It's offical TD live at the Shepherd'S > Bush >> Empire on May 12th ticket's on sale on line at www.ticketweb.co.uk >> priced at £18.50 hope to see you all there. >> Cheers Gary. > > Wa-hay! Just bought my ticket over the Web. It's gonna be strange > going to a TD show on a light spring evening; they usually seem to > play here in winter. (Of the 6 TD shows I've seen, 4 were in November > and 2 in March.) > > We should arrange a pre-show get-together as per the legandary 1996 > Shepherds Bush show. > > Glynn > > > > PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. > To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... > Website: http://www.tadream.net > > From: 'Phil Wingfield' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire . (Of the 6 TD shows I've seen, 4 were in November and 2 in March.) Hammersmith 1978 by any chance From: 'Phil Wingfield' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 9:54 am Subject: Re: [tadream] Shepherd's Bush Empire £18.50 Blimey Hi to all you UK members It's offical TD live at the Shepherd'S Bush Empire on May 12th ticket's on sale on line at www.ticketweb.co.uk priced at £18.50 hope to see you all there. Cheers Gary. From: 'Gary Jenkins' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 6:29 pm Subject: Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire --- In tadream@egroups.com, 'Glynn Naughton' wrote: > > > We should arrange a pre-show get-together as per the legandary 1996 > Shepherds Bush show. > > Glynn Hi Glynn I am in on this there will be three of us going my mate and his wife, I could not persuade my mrs she hates them. Cheers Gary Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25710 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Rolf =?iso-8859-1?Q?Elfstr=F6 Wed 1/17/2001 2 KB 25721 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Gary Jenkins Thu 1/18/2001 2 KB From: 'Whiteley, Steve' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 5:59 pm Subject: RE: Kiva Livemiles Hey Dreamers, Where's goozer! I was there at the Kiva in Albuquerque on time for the intro, in the archives are many vivid recollections. I suspect the spanish intro was to pull a little across the border mystery from the country the spanish conquered (maybe a Dali connection ;) ), what would have been really cool was if they dug deep instead of reaching and put a Hopi, Navajo or some other native intro. Why be real we live in dreamland, on the dreamlist, the same dream over and over with different clothes. My apologies to the sane. It is really beautiful outside sunny (again) and the wind is blowing gently, no birds crusing the thermal on the hills yet. And, I have to make the software talk to the hardware, suck. I have noticed redeaming qualities in disk 5 and 6 of the I-Box, how wierd. I really think the tape trees of the 90's for all those unreleased concert tapes, remastered for CDR was a great achievement. The web of cooperation across the world was way cool, much like our tribute CD. Sea of Dream and the Real Dream Encores maxed out, my smile was huge, the warm joy inside immense. Was the tree a bad thing, my branch made it to 76, did any of you all out there on a CDR tree make it further. Anyone into growing our own tree. Later, Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25712 Re: Kiva Livemiles Hermes Guzman Thu 1/18/2001 3 KB 25713 Re: Kiva Livemiles Frank Arellano Thu 1/18/2001 4 KB 25726 Re: Kiva Livemiles Whiteley, Steve Thu 1/18/2001 3 KB From: Rolf Elfström Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire >Hi Glynn I am in on this there will be three of us going my mate and >his wife, I could not persuade my mrs she hates them. >Cheers Gary TD or your mate and his wife??? ;) Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 25721 Re: Shepherd's Bush Empire Gary Jenkins Thu 1/18/2001 2 KB From: Sean Montgomery Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] Re: 'Live' recordings Feldon Feldon wrote: > I'm honestly getting so worn out on TD with all this I might unsubscribe. I've threathened the same thing in the past too. Sometimes, it seems like all I do on this list is complain, and I'm sure that this irritates a lot of people (particularly those who think everything the band does is automatically a work of genius). But the thing is, I'm not trying to bait people...I complain because I care. If I didn't care, I would have packed up and left a long time ago. I still like TD, and am just trying to compell them to help them help themselves. Ultimately, they rely on their fans for support, and I see that many fans aren't happy with what they're doing. So I encourage fans who *are* upset to vote with their wallets...i.e., not buy their stuff. That's the only way to get them to change. The other thing is, this is the only forum where fans can warn each other if the latest TDI release is another stinker, another Frankenstein's monster of overdubbing...or whether it's the real deal. We're obviously not getting the straight goods from TDI. -- SEAN MONTGOMERY T O P I X / Mad Dog http://www.topix.com/~sean From: 'Hermes Guzman' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 10:51 pm Subject: Re: Kiva Livemiles --- In tadream@egroups.com, 'Whiteley, Steve' wrote: > Hey Dreamers, > > Where's goozer! I was there at the Kiva in Albuquerque on time for > the intro, in the archives are many vivid recollections. I suspect > the spanish intro was to pull a little across the border mystery > from the country the spanish conquered (maybe a Dali connection ;) ) > [...] Here I am. I was amongst the first 20 people in the door. I wanted to be sure that I had a chance to see the stage before the show, not to mention not wanting to miss a single note. One of the funny moments from that evening was overhearing some dude stage-whispering 'Look at all the pseudo-intellectuals!' to his buddy as they walked to their seats. That is an exact quote. So there is no doubt to what follows: THERE WAS *NO* INTRO AT THE KIVA SHOW!! As I've *repeatedly* affirmed over the years as this question comes up: NOT ONE SINGLE SECOND OF _LIVEMILES: 'ALBUQUERQUE'_ IS FROM THE ACTUAL SHOW!! Were 'recreational pharmaceuticals' a part of these vivid recollections? ;) goozer From: 'Frank Arellano' Date: Wed Jan 17, 2001 10:16 pm Subject: Re: [tadream] RE: Kiva Livemiles Hey Steve, isn't the Kiva the one at the University Of New Mexico, dome shaped and slightly underground? If that's the one, I've never been in it, but did see it in passing when I attended UNM. What's your estimation of the Kiva's capacity? My brother and sister saw Yanni play there and in Santa Fe some years back. I would imagine having a dome shape would be great for acoustics. ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Whiteley, Steve' To: Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: [tadream] RE: Kiva Livemiles > Hey Dreamers, > > Where's goozer! I was there at the Kiva in Albuquerque on time for the > intro, in the archives are many vivid recollections. I suspect the spanish > intro was to pull a little across the border mystery from the country the > spanish conquered (maybe a Dali connection ;) ), what would have been really > cool was if they dug deep instead of reaching and put a Hopi, Navajo or some > other native intro. Why be real we live in dreamland, on the dreamlist, the > same dream over and over with different clothes. My apologies to the sane. > > It is really beautiful outside sunny (again) and the wind is blowing gently, > no birds crusing the thermal on the hills yet. And, I have to make the > software talk to the hardware, suck. I have noticed redeaming qualities in > disk 5 and 6 of the I-Box, how wierd. > > I really think the tape trees of the 90's for all those unreleased concert > tapes, remastered for CDR was a great achievement. The web of cooperation > across the world was way cool, much like our tribute CD. Sea of Dream and > the Real Dream Encores maxed out, my smile was huge, the warm joy inside > immense. Was the tree a bad thing, my branch made it to 76, did any of you > all out there on a CDR tree make it further. Anyone into growing our own > tree. > > Later, > Steve > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > PLEASE EDIT UNNECESSARY TEXT FROM YOUR MESSAGES. > To unsubscribe: mailto:tadream-unsubscribe@o... > Website: http://www.tadream.net > > From: 'Glenn Folkvord' Date: Thu Jan 18, 2001 12:23 am Subject: ES #9 Hey, For those into TD spotting, I'd like to mention that the latest TD news is featured in the new release