From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 1:34 am Subject: Re: Would you support a 70's TD today ? Really-From: Dennis Nigbur On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:03:18 +0000 tadream mailing list wrote: >Really-From: 'Grant Middleton' > > >Your statement seems to imply (at least to me, I could be >wrong) that the 70s style had been exhausted. I personally think that >the 'ultimate' 70's style analogue album has still to be made, >Rubycon notwithstanding. > >BTW, I think their current sound is 'anything but great'. > >Many bands are still doing roughly the same thing as they were doing >in the 70s (and even the 60s !) and are coming out with fresh-sounding >stuff. Aerosmith are one example which springs to mind. Okay, I'm afraid I misunderstood your point there. If they (or any other new band) decided to recover their 70s style to make a fresh effort to achieve what you might call the 'ultimate album', that's fine. I'd certainly appreciate such an effort aswell. I somehow understood from your previous mail that you were aiming at some 70s TD revival stuff. Sorry, just a misunderstanding. As you put it now, I entirely agree. >There is >still a vast area of unexplored music within the boundaries set by TD >et al. I want to hear some of the results of that exploration ! > Again, I completely agree. Exploring the spirit of the seventies using the experience and technology of the nineties sounds very interesting indeed. Dennis From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Thu Feb 27, 1997 9:03 pm Subject: Baumann solo stuff Really-From: 'Plumer, Scott' I was looing in the book _Rock Record_, an exhaustive discography of just about everyone, and noticed next to the entry for Peter Baumann, there was an entry for simply 'Baumann' with an album entitled 'Strangers in the Night,' released on Arista in the UK in 1984. Below that, there was an entry for a 'Baumann-Koek' album called 'Baumann-Koek' released on Jaguar in Germany. I know SitN is listed on the TD solo discography, but why would it be listed separately? And what's this 'Baumann-Koek'? Any relation? Scott Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1309 Re: Baumann solo stuff Vic Rek Fri 2/28/1997 2 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Thu Feb 27, 1997 1:11 pm Subject: TD, technology then and now. Really-From: kman@m... One of the attractive facets of TD is their implementation of cutting edge technology. Sometimes we may despair over the change in styles and textures, but Edgar and others are staying true to their philosophy of continual exploration. It's hard to compare the use of analog sounds and '70s styles from our perspective of today, where it's a RETRO approach, with when it was new and unexplored. Then textures and tones where being discovered and implemented in the context of novelty and freshness. To go back would be an admission that there is a barrier for new explorations. I'd rather see a judicious mixture of sounds and styles with a forward looking philosophy than just admitting that there is less interest in continuing the ongoing adventure. There have been a number of points in TD.s history where great use was made from mixing old and new technologies. The introduction of the PPG wave in combination with analog machines is one example, with the Poland concert a representative result. The prevelance of sampling machines in the mid eighties along with Yamaha DX sounds and digital synths added new textures to the Haslinger years, especially in Underwater Sunlight. Many of the breathy, tinkling bell derived sounds coming from Korg, Roland, Yamaha machines were not possible just with analog technology. We would have been deprived of a lot of good sounds and moving textures if just a '70s set up was applied. Without a machine like the Korg Wavestation many of the rhythmic melodic looped textures of the '90s would never have been possible. In summation I'll conclude by saying that a new TD production always carries with it the possibility of fresh sounds and textures, hopefully utilized within the context of moving musical peices. They indeed don't always come through, and at timesmerely duplicate what was already done, but at least the drive and potential for further exploration is present more often than not. Even the focus on more traditional instrumentation like guitar, piano, sax, is indicative of the will to evolve and change. However in all candor I think TD are at their best and most innovative when they work more within the electronic domain, using acoustic instruments more for contrast or a soloing spotlight. Sorry, got to cut it short now. I'd like to discuss similarities and differences in compositional style over the years some time. Bye for now, Arnold K. style From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Thu Feb 27, 1997 8:15 pm Subject: Re: Would you support a 70's TD today ? -Reply Really-From: florin epure >But it won't be made by Tangerine Dream. TD is a band that has >always >been driven by new technology, new sounds, and the mindset and >tastes of >its various members as they change over time. I think another aspect when comparing the new Jerome era with old 70's TD era (In my opinion) must be the composition of the music. Not only instruments count, but also the composition. You can write very good tracks - and even with analog 70's instruments they will sound excellent (see TD 70's era). They would sound as good to me with the new sounds/technology. You can write weaker tracks (or even bad tracks) (enough of them on Tyranny of beauty and Dream Mixes) - even with the best technology they sound strange (in my opinion again!) And as a conclusion and answer to the question:yes - I would really like to hear '70's like' TD today.(yes, I know it won't happen) - all I hope is that Jerome will stop playing following instruments: -the drums -the drums and of course -the drums and try also something else. Florin. From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 4:27 am Subject: Web Pages Really-From: dhughes@g... (David J. Hughes) Hi all, Please excuse the rather blatent plug but... Elephant, it gives me considerable pleasure to tell you that our Web Pages are now up and running at the following address : http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dhughes/tbass.html Our music has been favourably compared to late-eighties Tangerine Dream, synth pop pioneers Ultravox and Mark Shreeve in his synth-rock days i.e. before Redshift'. There's lots of information about the activities of the band including details of our forthcoming appearance at the EMMA 4 festival on May 31st. (Yes, that's one week after Kraftwerk and one week before Jarre hits Wembley : suddenly, we're spoiled for choice...' There are a couple of samples from our debut album, The Infection of Time, and some piccies from the archives. The pages are still under development and, although we haven't found any warts recently, there may be one or two foobars lurking. If you find one, please let us know. Cheers David Hughes (dhughes@g...) Tranquility Bass From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Thu Jan 1, 1970 4:59 am Subject: COMPILATIONS: Are They for Fans or the TD-Curious? Really-From: Steven Feldman Folks, I'm curious what people think about this: who do you think benefits most from compilation albums--the company who issues them, the band's fans, or persons mostly unfamiliar with the band who want to find out more about it with the least risk (i.e. expense . . . or winding up with a collection that has mostly stuff they learn that they don't like)? Personally, I think the answer is this: the company makes out the best because, to them, value judgments, relative merit, and opinions are irrelevant; the fans don't make out much at all, because they already own everything on the comp. and--due to the fact that comps. are culled only from one label/phase of the band's career--they are unrepresentative; and the idly curious (*potential* fan) tends to make out only insofar as he is getting something instead of nothing: a bad compilation is better than no compilation at all because at least two or three (as with Silva's DREAM MUSIC) sources on one album beats 'taking a chance' by buying one album from a band who has 50+ from which to choose. >Subject: Plus ca change...(HUGE POST-MISS IT AT YOUR PERIL!) >Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 22:14:09 -0500 >From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) >Really-From: goozer@a... (Hermes Guzman) > >[. . .] Virgin owns the publishing rights to the '74-'83 (Virgin >Years) material; Castle owns the rights to the '70-'73 (Pink Years) and >'84-'87 (Blue Years) material; Windham Hill now owns the rights to the >'88-'90 (Melrose Years) material; and Miramar owns the rights to the >'92-'95 (Seattle Years) material. [. . .] Understood. >[. . .] The various soundtracks are owned by the >respective studios and licensed out to whatever label cares to negotiate >for them. [. . .] What, pray tell, makes the motion picture industry appear to be more beneficent than the music industry in this context? If the movie folk can do it, what's holding the music folks back? I'm not sure if I'd advance that either industry was 'greedier' than the other. >[. . .] Each of the above labels makes a tidy sum off sales of their >respective albums, and has no need to license any portion out to others. 'No need,' or 'No desire'? What need do the movie studios have of licensing? To lure in more people by virtue of presenting a collection of music with more diverse sources, perhaps? By the same token, wouldn't a non-movie-tie-in compilation representative of a more diverse pool of source materials lure in more buyers? >They have no desire to help their _competitors_ make money, thank you very >much! [. . .] The nature of the world, at work. Still, what makes the movie industry appear to be so saintly in comparison? >[. . .] >While individual tracks can and do end up on off label, multi-artist >collections, you won't find Private issuing a collection with any Castle >material, or Miramar doing the 'Virgin/Seattle Years', etc. [. . .] Yeah, and why not? Is it because they don't like to pay the legal fees to iron out the details, and then have to mail off small checks to many companies each month, quarter, or whatever? Remember when there were lots of ads on TV for collections from Ronco, K-Tel, and suchlike? People joked about them, but many of these records were good collections and sold like gangbusters, and NONE OF THE MUSIC WAS OWNED BY THE COMPANY WHICH RELEASED THE COMPILATIONS: all of it was leased. >[. . .] The sdtk. >exceptions on 'Tangents' notwithstanding, as they were licensed from the >studios. Again, what makes the movie companies more helpful? It's a movie company that is preventing THE KEEP from being issued as an album, and a movie company that squelched a STREETHAWK soundtrack, wasn't it? >[. . .] >So unless Edgar starts buying back the rights, we won't be seeing >'Tatort' beside 'Ultima Thule' or 'Dolphin Dance' on the same CD... unless >it's a boot (which, by the way, is one reason they exist!) [. . .] As it is, 'Ultima Thule' is only on a European compilation CD, and for *I* know, this compilation draws from materials from more than one label. >[. . .] As some of you >may recall, thats why the forever rumored compilation video has never >surfaced, and why a video of the '90 Europe tour was cancelled: too many >companies wanted too much for the publishing rights to the material. That's why leasing exists. *Let* 'em keep the rights; lease 'em. >Most fans don't bother with compilations. This list, to which it can be >safely assumed that we are all die-hard fans, has slighly less than 400 >members. Most of us lurk, and out of the 50 or so 'usual suspects' who >regularly post, it seems that a sizeable minority _don't_ purchase >everything that's out there. [. . .] Hey, I don't purchase everything, either: almost everything, but I don't buy compilations unless there's something new on them, like Edgar's SOLO 74-79 and BEYOND THE STORM; Franke's NEW MUSIC FOR FILMS, VOL 1; the '70-'80 box set, THE PRIVATE MUSIC OF TANGERINE DREAM, TANGENTS, BOOK OF DREAMS, and DREAM ROOTS. >[. . .] So where do you even get the faintest clue >that your 'UberCollection' would outsell _any_ TD release even 1.5/1? >[. . .] o There would be 3 CDs instead of 5 (cheaper). o A sample(r) from more different albums than any other sampler. o Good faith on the part of the label (using competitors' materials) generates positive buyer response. o This would be about the only compilation with no new material that non-completist die-hards (an oxymoron?) might actively seek out because the collection is genuinely good, not just an excuse for the record company to sell another record: the 'Ultima Thule' and Ones 45s would be on there. >[. . .] just because you've met a few other people who can all _talk_ >as loud in this small little room, with the same desire to own >everything out there that you have, doesn't mean that there are teeming >masses to do the same! I am all too aware of this fact, and that's exactly why I think the idly curious record buyer--with little prior knowledge of TD--would be better served by a package with a broader range which would reflect the band's output as a whole, not just the output of their stint with a particular publisher. + + + + + + + >Subject: Re: A Call to Arms >Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 20:16:06 -0800 >From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) >Really-From: Mark Filipak > >This is why I posted my opinion that people should use good judgement -- >to think before they post. The simple question that should be asked: >'Why am I posting this?' 'What do I expect to happen as a result of >posting this?' [. . .] I meant to create two flame wars on subjects that I feel strongly about, and I succeeded. I'm glad. Now, at least, I get to read and contribute to stuff on this list I care about (and no, I don't care exclusively about starting flame wars). I hoped that my stating of strong views would evoke a strong response, and it has. This, to my mind, is a good thing. >[. . .] But when >someone posts a rant deriding Edgar and his current output of music, >what is the point? To isolate possible causes and to integrate the resultant realizations that are yielded from such analysis. >[. . .] I have continued to correspond with several people who >have left this list. One of them is a leading e-music >musician/producer/label owner. If I told you who it is your hair would >stand on end. [. . .] And perhaps not. Fame doesn't impress me. Unless it's a musician for which I personally have respect or of which I buy recordings, I really wouldn't care *who* it is: if it was, for example, Thomas Dolby, Klaus Schulze, Vangelis, or Tomita, I wouldn't be too upset from the loss. Actually, even it was EDGAR, I wouldn't be too upset. I mean, really, think about it: what would Edgar's presence really result in? We would all kiss his ass and tone down our comments, and in turn, this list would become an information extension of the various 'official' TD websites. Brian Eno once sent a message to the Eno list saying, in effect, 'Thanks but no thanks. I have no wish to split hairs with fans about what songs they like, don't like, and why.' >[. . .] He thinks this list 'extremely anal' to use his very >words. Another person with whom I correspond is a performer and >promoter. He thinks this list is a 'bitch club'. Believe me, these are >the very type of people we need on the TaDream List and all this >incessent complaining and advice to Edgar is driving them away. I >belong to other music lists in related genres. [. . .] Most artists/creators/performers hate critics. Ever hear the expression, 'Those who can't do, teach; those who can't teach become critics'? >[. . .] I find none of this petty sniping on them. Geesh. What is it, a Classical list, or . . . a list with only one tenth the amount of subscribers that the TD list has? >[...] >I draw the line at accusations that Edgar did 'Tangents' because he is >greedy, as has been asserted. [. . .] I'm sorry if I led anyone to believe that I believe Edgar is greedy in of himself: I merely feel that he is contributing to unfortunate business practices on the part of his employers. + + + + + + + >Subject: Re: tadream-digest V15 #845 >Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 08:50:25 -0600 (CST) >From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) >Really-From: Michael A Jean > >STEVE: SUre your plan sounds nice, but why write a letter to Mirimar >about releases from other record companies? TANGENTS was on Virgin, and >DRC was on SEQUEL. Do you really expect record companies to be trading >material. I don't *expect* it, no. That's why I'm suggesting it to the one TD label that has yet to release a compilation of any sort (unless you consider TRUE NORTH or THE DREAM MIXES to be TD compilations). I *do*, however, think it would be nice (and *not* unprecedented). If such maligned outfits as Ronco, Adam VIII, and K-Tel can do, what is preventing the Big Boys from doing the same? >ZONING: Chris Franke's music was never EDITED OUT of Zoning! The 1980s >version of a film called Zoning DID contain CF music, but the S/T was >never released (it contained alot of Vermilion Sands kind of stuff). >[. . .] You mean, it's like THE PARK IS MINE, and we'll never hear it? :( >[. . .] The >latest ZONING movie is completely unrelated to the first one. They just >both happen to have TD music. I got to thinking about this, and I recalled that TD reputedly did a soundtrack in the late 1980's called ZONE TROOPERS. I have a feeling that all this confusion is due to the fact that ZONE TROOPERS is being mistakenly-remembered as ZONING.' Steven Feldman -- 33 Brook Street, Apt. 3, Brookline, MA 02146; INTERNET: BITNET: DREAMS WORD: Electronic Dreams, POB 42385, Portland, OR 97242. The Nightcrawlers, c/o Peter D. Gulch -- 1493 Greenwood Avenue, Camden, NJ 08103-2929. PERSONAL FAVES: Tangerine Dream, Nightcrawlers, Ozrics, Jonn Serrie, Robert Carty. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ OUT TO PROVE THAT 'THE KEEP' SOUNDTRACK WAS RELEASED TEMPORARILY IN 1984. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1321 Re: COMPILATIONS: Are They for Fans or the TD-Cur TheSmitter@a... Fri 2/28/1997 3 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Thu Feb 27, 1997 9:46 pm Subject: Re: Tangerine Dream filmography Really-From: 'Harri Ikonen' > Really-From: PNaunton@a... > > Great research. I hope you don't mind if I copy it to my TD > (personal) discography file. There is some information here which I have > never come across before. Thanks again. Thanks for the compliment! No, I don't mind. After all, I used Mark Filipak's list as a reference so I guess I'm guilty of copying too :) -- Harri Ikonen hikonen@m... From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 12:57 am Subject: Re: What is this list about? Really-From: Mark Filipak tadream mailing list wrote: > > Really-From: Robert Forman <73652.1423@C...> > > >> But Goozer's post was followed just 7 hours later by Robert Forman's > post to that thread in which he lauded Robert Fripp and derided Edgar. > Well, I guess I just snapped.<< > > Point 1: Some of us are not on this list interactively. I, for one, get > the list in digest mode. Some of my posts may appear to be 'dated' by > the time I get the opportunity to e-mail my remarks. I'm sorry if this > is the case, but unless I only lurk on this list, it is my only option. In my fevered condition I didn't think of that. Sorry Bob. Guess this makes you a casualty of war -- a war you didn't really take part in. I appologize for flaming you. Like I said, I just snapped. Thanks for being a gentleman and not snapping back. > Point 2: Perhaps you were sensitive to the issue, and my posting using > the 'sickening TANGENT-izing' thread made my reason for posting the > message I sent unclear. Yes, I was lauding Robert Fripp. No I was not > deriding Edgar. As a Tangerine Dream fan, one who posses a number of > bootlegs and fan tapes, I WISH Edgar would go through the TD archives > and release some of the material which has been performed live but has > never been officially released. Fripp is doing that with KC, and in a > way that I, as a fan, would love to see TD take on. As do we all. I recently got 'Live! Improvised!' and the realization hit me like a load of bricks. Not only is the performance excellent, and the sound on this bootleg very good, but it, along with 'Coefficient of Aural Expansion', are the only live samples I have of TD's improv days that have been committed to CD -- too bad they had to be boots. I for one see nothing wrong with saying that we would all like to see Edgar go to the vaults and issue everything. I look forward in eager anticipation to getting my signed copy of Klaus Schulze's 'Jubilee Edition' 25CD box this summer. To draw an analogy between your comment about Robert Fripp and KS -- yes, it would be very nice if Edgar would issue a huge box of unreleased material. I would sell all my FAX collection to get the money together to buy it. In retrospect, your comments about R.Fripp were not flamebait and I'm sincerely sorry I jumpped on you. > I wish/hope that Froese will do the same. But I have no expectations in > that regard. Froese will do what he wants when he wants, and I have no > information as to his desire to take on such a project, what the legal > roadblocks might be, etc. AS A FAN, with knowledge of the virtual > mountain of music (some of it I know to be great) out there, I wish for > official release. It is my opinion that the music was meant to be > heard, and it's a shame that only those of us with access to the > internet/bootlegs/fan tapes are able to hear it. I'm not so sure that > Edgar does not agree, and that the TDI label the band has created will > be used for just such a project. I HOPE so. > > Finally: It's not my desire to tell Edgar or the band what it is they > 'should' do. I'm on this list and sometimes I communicate my TD > opinions and wishes to other fans. They are opinions and wishes, not > demands. Sorry if you see things otherwise. I don't see things otherwise. I just didn't think it was fair to flame Edgar and slander him the way he was being flamed and slandered (not by you, though, by others). At heart, we are all in love with TD. It seems at times to be unrequited love and it's understandible if it sometimes leads to resentment. In my fevered dreams I've even thought of declaring a personal list-strike, posting only a daily strike declaration, until Edgar and/or Jerome shows up on this list, if for even just an hour a week, but in more sober moments I realize that the bad publicity a list-strike might engender would only hurt TD and us and that it probably wouldn't be successful anyways. Believe me, I share everyone's frustrations, but it's simply not right to lash out at Edgar as some have done. Hopefully, this dark period has now run it's course and we've all learned a thing or two. I hope we can just ignore future rants about Edgar without providing either support or condemnation so that the ranter just gets tired and quits it. All should remember that this is a public forum and should believe me when I say that I _know_ from _firsthand_ _experience_ that people _very_ _close_ to TD and to former band members lurk this list _regularly_. 'Nuf said -- on with the show. > >>Bob<< To make amends for my unfair treatment of you, I'd like to send you a Korg sampler CD with an E.Froese tune on it that is found nowhere else to my knowledge. The songtitle is 'Michiko'. (Anyone know if this is found on any other CD, LP, EP, or single -- or even bootleg?) Email your address privately and I'll send it out to you. Sweet Dreams -- Mark From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 2:42 am Subject: Re: Baumann solo stuff Really-From: Vic Rek At 04:03 PM 2/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >Really-From: 'Plumer, Scott' >that, there was an entry for a 'Baumann-Koek' album called >'Baumann-Koek' released on Jaguar in Germany. I know SitN is listed on >the TD solo discography, but why would it be listed separately? And >what's this 'Baumann-Koek'? Any relation? This is a private pressing released after Romance '76 in 1978. The music is very good but unfortunately there is very little information on this release. I heard somebody say that Baumann denies playing on this? Vic From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 2:42 am Subject: Conrad Schnitzler Rarities Really-From: Vic Rek Anyone looking for Conrad Schnitzler rarities? There is an auction in Goldmine Magazine #433 that closes March 28, 1997. His rarest item is for bid also. The items are: Auf dem Schwarzen Kanal 12' Oldie Markt LP Das Ist Schonheit 2LPs Eruption Box Set + cassette (the rarest) probably will go for $1,500 or so. You can fax you bids to Guenter Heintz in the US at 505-437-1385. From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 2:42 am Subject: Ultima Thule on a Compilation? Really-From: Vic Rek > > As it is, 'Ultima Thule' is only on a European compilation CD, and >for *I* know, this compilation draws from materials from more than one >label. > Which compilation CD is this on? Vic From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 2:43 am Subject: Bionaut in NYC & Philly Really-From: Bionaut@a... COME VACCUM THE PROPHET Upcoming live dates for Bionaut (Christopher Green & Paul Eggleston) from Massachusetts... 'Bionaut offers '...mindwarping analog-fueled interstellar journeys like you've never heard before.' Believe me, this is no hype. The obvious skill at which Bionaut creates their sound is comparable to the Orb. If anyone says ambient is dull and uninteresting, direct them towards Bionaut.' - Tribal Gathering, Jan 1997. Sunday, MARCH 2 at Amoeba - Den of Thieves, 145 E Houston St (between Aves 1 & 2), NYC. Voicemail/Info 212-726-1546 MARCH 29 at Star's End Gathering X - Press release info follows... STAR'S END GATHERING X TO FEATURE BIONAUT (Philadelphia, PA) Stars End Gathering X on Saturday, March 29, 1997, will feature live electronic space music by Bionaut. Sponsored by the 20-year-old WXPN radio program, Star's End, the concert will be held from 8:00pm-11pm in Houston Hall, at 3417 Spruce Street in West Philadelphia. Tickets at the door are $10; WXPN members and students free. For concert information, call 1-800-565-WXPN or 1 (215) 573-3340. Concert Preview: The Saturday, March 22nd broadcast of Star's End will feature Bionaut's music in addition to a live telephone interview with Bionaut (Chris Green and Paul Eggleston) in the first hour of the show. Star's End can be heard every Saturday night/Sunday morning from 1am-6am on: 88.5fm WXPN Philadelphia; 88.1fm WXPH Harrisburg; 90.5fm Worton/Baltimore, MD; and 104.9fm Allentown. Star's End Gatherings are live concerts featuring musicians from the ambient, electronic, and space music worlds. For more info: http://www.starsend.org Below are directions to Houston Hall Auditorium: -I-95 N or S -76 W (exit 11) -South Street (exit 40) -left at traffic signal -pass three traffic signals (34th Street) -Houston Hall is 2nd building on right -upstairs to 2nd floor Best parking: Chestnut and Walnut Streets between 33rd and 36th Streets Crashanywhere From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 3:40 am Subject: Re: What is this list about? Really-From: Rich Maggio Fellow dreamers and dreamettes: I'd like to add my 2 cents to this discussion about 'what this list is about' and what types of discussions should be 'permitted' on this list. I hate to add to this, but I feel I need to say something. For those of you (I include myself) who are tired of this thread, I apologize. It grows wearying by the moment! I'll start off with what this list is for me. For me, this list is a means to engage in 'conversation' with other fans of a relatively obscure group - TD. It is also a means of gathering information about upcoming releases and opinions on previous ones. For these purposes, this list has served me quite well. Folks have been quite helpful to me and I would like to think that I have given a bit back and helped others out. Now, about what is to be deemed as 'permittable' discussion: As with any group of people, there are those that are incessant complainers and need to find fault in just about anything. These people have every right to voice their opinions and complaints, as do any of us. Some of us may find it annoying or abrasive, and that's fine as well. That's why they have delete keys on keyboards. In 'real life', you either avoid these people or tune them out. The same can be done here. This is what I do. The way I look at it is that if someone is an ass, they may not be aware of it, but others around them sure are. These people are seen by others as what they are. There is no need to engage them - this only encourages them. They will always be right no matter what you say, so save your time and typing. Ignore them. Let them dig their hole. I find it to be the most pain free way to deal with them. Maybe one day, they will figure out that they are an ass and do something about it. Before anyone flames me here, I'm not implying that anyone in particular on this list is an ass. I'm generalizing. There are some here, though I don't have anyone particular in mind as I write this. Someone mentioned that the people on this list are viewed as being anal. I agree. Anal is not always a bad thing. Many of us are successful in life because of the fact that we are as such. Some are more anal than others. Fine. Why don't we show some tolerance and let it be. If you can't tolerate it, then leave. It's quite simple. No one if forcing anyone to participate on this list. If you find it filled with a bunch of intolerably anal people, do as you would in real life - don't associate with them. I a very tolerant person, but one thing I can't tolerate is intolerance! I feel that some of this is creeping up in this list based on this thread. And it bothers me. So, for me, I think the list has been going quite fine, despite this current thread. Not perfect, but nothing in life is. When the day comes that I find it insufferable (and I doubt that will be the case), I will unsubscribe. Simple. Flame me if you will, but I couldn't just sit back and let this one ride by. Just my 2 cents, Rich Maggio From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 3:07 am Subject: clarification Really-From: goozer@a... (Hermes Guzman) Greetings all. It seems that a small amount of confusion has been caused by my recent post as to what the intent of my jeremiad was. It was most decidedly _NOT_ to suggest, imply, or recommend that criticism be censured (or even censored), nor was it a call for moderation of the list. As I stated in my post; we are all individuals, and as such, we experience things in a manner unique to us. We also all have a subjective bias as regards our experiences; again from a individually unique perspective. I do not, nor can I ever, expect any of you to agree with my feelings or opinions 100% lock step, two, three, four. Just as I (obviously) do not agree with yours full-time. The way in which we define our individuality is in the interaction and interchage with others of our respective points-of-view, thereby (hopefully) allowing us to both learn and grow. What I was commenting on, simply, was that there is a difference between honest criticism and slander. One is constructive. The other is destructive. Which one is which should be obvious. Hope this helps. goozer Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 35816 Re: clarification tei waz teiwazbarana2002 Fri 8/30/2002 2 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 5:55 am Subject: Re: Checkpoint Charley Really-From: PNaunton@a... In a message dated 97-02-26 20:20:21 EST, you write: << P.S. I used to like Kraan. Are they or their music still around? > I don't know their music but I have come across some of their releases on CD. What do they sound like? Vic >> One word <>. Reminiscent of Can, Amon Duul II, although, if my memory serves, more intense. Phil Naunton From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 5:56 am Subject: Re: Klaus Schulze IS Sequenced! Really-From: PNaunton@a... In a message dated 97-02-27 08:51:16 EST, Vic writes: << Well I just got in my German copy of Klaus Schulze - Are You Sequenced? >> Where did you get it, Vic? I've been hunting for this since the end of last year. Phil Naunton From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 5:56 am Subject: Re: Checkpoint Charley Really-From: PNaunton@a... In a message dated 97-02-27 03:59:54 EST, you write: << You can get most of the CDs in Germnay. The most famous are 'Flyday', 'Live (DoCD)', 'Wiederhoern', 'Let it out' and many more. If interested, write to rainer@i... for more infos. Mit den besten Gruessen vom Bodensee ! Rainer Rutka >> 'Wiederhoern' That's the one! I had that on tape until I erased it accidently. That was a big loss. It probably doesn't have the same magic now, but I've always wanted to replace it. Couldn't remember the name of the album, though. Thanks for the information. Phil Naunton From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 5:56 am Subject: Re: What is this list about? (was Re: New Day) Really-From: PNaunton@a... In a message dated 97-02-27 01:24:07 EST, you write: << I welcomed Goozer's long posting 'Plus ca change...(HUGE POST-MISS IT AT YOUR PERIL!)' which I was hoping would finally end the 'Sickening TANGENT-izing' thread. But Goozer's post was followed just 7 hours later by Robert Forman's post to that thread in which he lauded Robert Fripp and derided Edgar. Well, I guess I just snapped. >> I snapped a while back, too. And I blew up on the list, sorry to say. It felt good. It feels better now. I vented my spleen, and that's it. Now I can talk about more important things. Phil Naunton From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 5:56 am Subject: Re: Would you support a 70's TD today ? Really-From: PNaunton@a... In a message dated 97-02-27 06:00:56 EST, Grant writes: << What I was wondering, though, was; If a band appeared tomorrow who produced a '70s sound like Baumann era TD or Timewind era Klaus Schulze, would there be a big market for it ? Would it be as popular as the first time round, would it sink without trace, or would it, in fact, be /more/ popular ? >> In my opinion, you are confusing popularity with quality; two things which are rarely synonymous. I really don't believe that 'Encore' or any of that original stuff was all that popular whan it originally came out. I still have very strong memories of mentioning Tangerine Dream to my various friends back then, and the responding blank stares; as if to say, 'That Phil! Another one of those wierd, off the wall european rock groups. Get a life, Phil, will ya?' But, HA. I've got the last laugh. Those guys are all married with too many children, and living way out in the middle of nowhere in their $250,000 houses, and their Porsches and BMWs and Mercedes Benzes. And me? I'm divorced, and pennyless, living in the heart of a major metropolitan area with gunfire keeping me awake at night. But I can still play those old TD albums and think of the good old days. What can they remember? Huh? The previous - all in jest. Talk to you all later. Phil Naunton From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 5:55 am Subject: Re: A Call to Arms Really-From: PNaunton@a... In a message dated 97-02-26 23:40:30 EST, you write: << I have continued to correspond with several people who have left this list. One of them is a leading e-music musician/producer/label owner. If I told you who it is your hair would stand on end. He thinks this list 'extremely anal' to use his very words. Another person with whom I correspond is a performer and promoter. He thinks this list is a 'bitch club'. Believe me, these are the very type of people we need on the TaDream List and all this incessent complaining and advice to Edgar is driving them away. I belong to other music lists in related genres. I find none of this petty sniping on them. >> This is totally ridiculous. This list is not any different than it was two years ago. It is not suffering, I repeat 'NOT SUFFERING'. The people who contribute to this list, I repeat 'CONTRIBUTE to this list' make it what it is. Many people have left this list, and for reasons _I_ consider ANAL. 'Too much tracks and timings and etc. talked about.' 'The whole weekly/album discussion platform.' 'Etc. Etc. Etc.' These people are gone, and I miss them, to be frank, I miss them alot, but this list is not any the worse off for not having them. Others have taken their places, and those new members have more fresh blood to contribute. Its wonderful! The easiest thing in the world is to say, 'Yeah, I quit TADREAM. What a bunch of assholes those guys are.' SOUR GRAPES!!! If you want it different, make it what you want. You have the power. Resignation never did crap to change the world. I don't care what the foundations of this list are like, people will STILL unsubscribe because they don't like it. It might even be Mother Theresa who unsubscribes, and some people might be really disappointed to see her go. This list and its spirit will probably go on until Edgar is 97 and spending most of his time in a hospital in Calcutta. By then I'll be picking up my E-Mail from a terminal just inside the Gates Of Hell because I'll be long dead. For as many people who dump on this list, there are ten who indicate that it is the best list around. I agree. I'm biased, too. The other ones I've looked in on, some for many months, are shallow and scattered, stupid and sad. This list is always active, always thoughtful, always interesting, and this thread is no different. If this theme keeps up much longer, I QUIT!!!! Just kidding ;-) Phil Naunton From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 6:50 am Subject: Re: COMPILATIONS: Are They for Fans or the TD-Curious? Really-From: TheSmitter@a... Steven, I've always felt that the company makes out on compilations. It seems like they should cost next to nothing to produce (unless they've been re-recorded or altered in any way like Tangents, etc). The fans certainly don't make out. Often times they're not a true representation of the band - it's only the 'hits', not the hidden gems. I rarely play compilations because most don't flow well. Too many different moods and styles covering too great a span of time. I think a lot of would-be fans will never seek out more music by a particular band because the compilation they just bought is such a jumbled mess. And those compilations with one or more unreleased cuts are the worst! They've suckered me in more times than I care to admit. How many times can you sell the same item to the same person but in a new package? Larry << Folks, I'm curious what people think about this: who do you think benefits most from compilation albums--the company who issues them, the band's fans, or persons mostly unfamiliar with the band who want to find out more about it with the least risk (i.e. expense . . . or winding up with a collection that has mostly stuff they learn that they don't like)? >> From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 7:53 am Subject: TD and JMJ in Holland Really-From: Jeroen Geerts ** High Priority ** Does anyone know how to obtain tickets for the concerts of TD and JMJ in Holland Jeroen J Geerts jjg.geerts@w... From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 4:26 pm Subject: Re: tadream-digest V15 #848 Really-From: ashok prema >> >> >> > > >------------------------------ > >From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) >Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:54:36 -0600 >Subject: Re: Would you support a 70's TD today ? > >Really-From: feldon@n... > >At 11:00 AM 2/27/97 +0000, you wrote: >>Really-From: 'Grant Middleton' >> >>What I was wondering, though, was; If a band appeared tomorrow >>who produced a '70s sound like Baumann era TD or Timewind era >>Klaus Schulze, would there be a big market for it ? Would it be >>as popular as the first time round, would it sink without trace, >>or would it, in fact, be /more/ popular ? >> >>I would personally be delighted by such a band. What about the >>other list members ? > >I would personally buy 20 copies of each CD. > >Morgan >feldon@n... > >P.S. Maybe I'm blurring your post, but I think that Baumann and Smoelling >eras are one category and all this post 1983 stuff is another category... > Morgan, Have you then ordered 20 copies of Mark Shreves'Red Shift' album then? As a couple have said on previous Digests - this is Rubycon pt 2 if ever there was one - PROGTRON should be able to supply you 20 copies I'm sure! also on the same subject:: Really-From: 'Marcel Engels' ? Would it be> as popular as the first time round, would it sink without trace, > or would it, in fact, be /more/ popular ? Absolutely. Look at AirSculpture, Radio Massacre International and Mark Shreeve. They all gone back analogue and have great success with it! Great music can also be conceived with digital equipment though. Marcel Well - how do you define success?? None of the above have made a dent in in the music world - whereas TD are world renowned - plus in terms of sales - the above are miniscule - a couple of thousand perhaps instead of tens of thousands like TD! Succesful?? certainly not commercially ! Ash Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1324 Re: tadream-digest V15 #848 Craig R. J. Cordrey Fri 2/28/1997 4 KB 1328 Re: tadream-digest V15 #848 Mark Filipak Fri 2/28/1997 3 KB 1333 Re: tadream-digest V15 #848 Marcel Engels Fri 2/28/1997 3 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 4:42 pm Subject: Re: tadream-digest V15 #848 Really-From: 'Craig R. J. Cordrey' > Really-From: ashok prema > >> Absolutely. Look at AirSculpture, Radio Massacre International and Mark >> Shreeve. They all gone back analogue and have great success with it! >> Great music can also be conceived with digital equipment though. >> >> Marcel > > Well - how do you define success?? None of the above have made a dent in > in the music world - whereas TD are world renowned - plus in terms of > sales - the above are miniscule - a couple of thousand perhaps instead of > tens of thousands like TD! Succesful?? certainly not commercially ! > > Ash Are TD world renowned? They may have been twenty years ago, when they were constantly in the top twenty album charts in the UK. Into the eighties, when I first started listening to them and people would say 'Oh, yeah, I've heard _of_ them, but not anything _by_ them.' In the late eighties there was an awful lot of 'God, are they still on the go?' and 'I haven't heard of them for ages.' Nowadays I usually get a blank look. And of course, as you say yourself, it depends how you define success. Tens of thousands is, of course, a miniscule amount in relation to the real big boys (Bat out of Hell, Saturday Night Fever, etc.). Whilst it is easy to say that TD are probably the biggest name in e-music (although now having said that some are sure to disagree) with people like JMJ, Kraftwerk and Schulze close behind, we always have to remember that e-musc is a very small proportion of the music industry. Just last night, Cambridge University Student Union had a debate : 'Oasis or The Beatles - Who's Best?' (Thankfully the Beatles won). Now that is popular music for you. I can hardly see Oxford Univeristy Student Union debating 'Analogue or Digital - TDs Best?' --------------------------------------------- Craig R. J. Cordrey - Senior Software Engineer GEC-Marconi S3I Simulation and Training Division (Donibristle) E-mail : cordrey@m... cordrey@m... --------------------------------------------- From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 4:46 pm Subject: Blue Ice Really-From: 'Craig R. J. Cordrey' Last night I was playing a demo for a new computer game called Blue Ice. The intro info stated that the real game had a lot of musc on it (not in the demo) including FSOL, Orbital, Tangerine Dream and Duke Ellington (!?!). Moving around the rooms and views of this adventure game, there is a facility to see what music would be playing in the real game. So far I've found FSOL, Paul Schulze, Mozart, Ellington but no TD. Of course, it's only a small part of the full game so I assume it's somewhere in the non-demo region. Anyone heard of this game and, more to the point, what TD track appears in it? Thanks, --------------------------------------------- Craig R. J. Cordrey - Senior Software Engineer GEC-Marconi S3I Simulation and Training Division (Donibristle) E-mail : cordrey@m... cordrey@m... --------------------------------------------- From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 10:55 am Subject: Most popular name in e-music Really-From: 'Grant Middleton' > Really-From: 'Craig R. J. Cordrey' > Whilst it is easy to say that TD are probably the biggest > name in e-music (although now having said that some are > sure to disagree) Well, sorry Craig me ole' mucka, I'm afraid I'm going to be the first. There is no way that TD comes anywhere near the 'Giants' of e-music like JMJ or Vangelis. Now, we all know that TD are the BEST, but in terms of public awareness or commercial popularity they are nowhere to be seen these days. Even in their greatest days (the '70s IMO), they were overshadowed by Monsieur Jarre's Oxygene and Equinoxe and Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells. In the '80s Jarre had a few singles in the charts, and many a respectable quantity of albums shifted. Kraftwerk topped the UK charts with 'The Model' and Vangelis shot to fame through 'Chariots of Fire' and 'Blade Runner'. A very few people stopped to look at the credits on 'Thief' and 'Risky Business'. My point ? Basically /we/ know everything about TD but in the public eye they rate somewhere a few notches down from Giorgio Moroder. It's a shame, but it's true. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _.^~~~~~\ Grunt ! [, @ E-Mail : grantm@d... \______/ /\ /\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1392 Re: Most popular name in e-music TWeibre361@a... Mon 3/3/1997 2 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: (Date Unavailable) Subject: TD and the quiz machine Really-From: G.K.Naughton@i... >Are TD world renowned? They may have been twenty years ago, >when they were constantly in the top twenty album charts in >the UK. Into the eighties, when I first started listening >to them and people would say 'Oh, yeah, I've heard _of_ >them, but not anything _by_ them.' In the late eighties >there was an awful lot of 'God, are they still on the go?' >and 'I haven't heard of them for ages.' Nowadays I usually >get a blank look. In the late eighties some friends and I, who are all TD fans, were playing one of those pub quiz machines, and one of the questions was 'Tangerine Dream were:' One of the choices was 'a synthesiser group', but I can't remember the others. So TD were past tense for some people almost ten years ago. On the train on the way back from the London concert we got a lot of 'God, are they still going?' responses :-) Not that any of this matters, though. I'll still stick with 'em... >Just last night, Cambridge University Student Union had a >debate : 'Oasis or The Beatles - Who's Best?' (Thankfully >the Beatles won). Now that is popular music for you. I can >hardly see Oxford Univeristy Student Union debating >'Analogue or Digital - TDs Best?' Hmm, I may be old-fashioned, but this kind of thing makes me incredibly sad. I love rock music to bits, but is it really a subject for the debating chamber of what was once, at any rate, one of the most prestigious universities in the world? On 'University Challenge' they used to ask questions about classical Greek architecture and mathematics. Now the subject matter is more about Tom Hanks films and David Bowie records. Ah well... Glynn From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 11:46 am Subject: Re: tadream-digest V15 #848 Really-From: Mark Filipak > Craig R. J. Cordrey wrote: > > > Ashok Prema wrote: > > > >> Marcel Engles wrote: > >> > >> Absolutely. Look at AirSculpture, Radio Massacre International and > >> Mark Shreeve. They all gone back analogue and have great success > >> with it! Great music can also be conceived with digital equipment > >> though. > >> > >> Marcel > > > > Well - how do you define success?? None of the above have made a > > dent in in the music world - whereas TD are world renowned - plus > > in terms of sales - the above are miniscule - a couple of thousand > > perhaps instead of tens of thousands like TD! Succesful?? > > certainly not commercially ! > > > > Ash > > Are TD world renowned? They may have been twenty years ago, > when they were constantly in the top twenty album charts in > the UK. Into the eighties, when I first started listening > to them and people would say 'Oh, yeah, I've heard _of_ > them, but not anything _by_ them.' In the late eighties > there was an awful lot of 'God, are they still on the go?' > and 'I haven't heard of them for ages.' Nowadays I usually > get a blank look. -snip- > > Craig R. J. Cordrey Whenever I talk with young trip-hoppers and mention TD, I'm amazed by the number who know the band. Some even know 'Zeit', 'Phaedra', etc. -- always the older stuff and then, of course 'Dream Mixes' -- not much in between. Hmmmm.... -- Mark From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 8:42 pm Subject: Re: A Call to Arms (FYI:minimal TD content) Really-From: sbm@p... (Steve McCready) On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:43:21 Craig wrote: >There appears to be a high level of intolerance on this >list, especially just lately. Unfortunately, that does seem to be the case more and more around these parts. One of the things I've liked about TADREAM is that, for the most part, it has not been filled with folks trying to guide what we talk about. People post what's on their mind (TD-related, that is), and the others respond to it or ignore it as they see fit. >We need opinions, and discussion, and eventually that WILL >give rise to dreams (no pun intended), desires and wishes >for the future. Am I not allowed to state that I LIKE >Underwater Sunlight more than Encore? That I WISH they >would do more in the early-eighties style than the >early-nineties? That I ACCEPT that they are artists who do >what they want, and therefore I either buy it or leave? As far as I'm concerned, you are. When I first joined this list, I paid very close attention to the different opinions people expresed about TD albums - it was often a key factor in the order in which I bought their CDs. I haven't always agreed with the prevailing opinion of the list (why, why, why does everyone like 'Exit' so much?), but it's still been valuable to hear the comments, both positive & negative, and in a couple of cases, it has helped me look at certain albums in a different light. >Do I really care if there's a millisecond drop-out on >channel A of song B on album C released by record company D >compared with that on record company E? > >No, I DON'T. But I accept it as valid discussion on this >forum. Agreed. >ALL MY OWN OPINION, of course. I find it unfortunate that some list members feel they need to put this in their posts, though I do understand why they have. -Steve sbm@p... Sacramento, CA From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 8:50 pm Subject: Re: Would you support a 70's TD today ? Really-From: sbm@p... (Steve McCready) On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:00:00 +0000, Grant wrote: >I've just recently acquired a new e-mail account. Hello >to all Tadream members who know me and to those who >don't. Welcome back! >What I was wondering, though, was; If a band appeared tomorrow >who produced a '70s sound like Baumann era TD or Timewind era >Klaus Schulze, would there be a big market for it ? Would it be >as popular as the first time round, would it sink without trace, >or would it, in fact, be /more/ popular ? Well, what about the bands around today who are producing 70'sTD-like music? Anyone have any ideas how they are doing, popularity-wise? Personally, I can't find Node, Airsculpture, RMI, etc. anywhere in my area, so all I've managed to pick up from them was a Node song that's on Trance Europe Express 2. Also, I have no idea how popular TD & KS actually were in the 70's. >I would personally be delighted by such a band. What about the >other list members ? If they could take some of the sounds and ideas that came from the TD & KS of the 70's, and add a new twist or identity to the music, I'd love it. -Steve sbm@p... Sacramento, CA From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 10:22 pm Subject: X Files Really-From: dhughes@g... (David J. Hughes) Hi all, >Elephant, it gives me considerable pleasure to tell you that our Web Pages >are now up and running at the following address : > > http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dhughes/tbass.html > >Our music has been favourably compared to late-eighties Tangerine Dream, >synth pop pioneers Ultravox and Mark Shreeve in his synth-rock days i.e. For some unknown reason, the word 'Elephant' appeared in my previous post. Err, apart from that fact that the X Files were about to start on BBC1, has anyone an explaination for this? Actually, it should say 'After what seem like a gestation period longer than that of the African Elephant, it gives me great pleasure to tell you that...' Guess the cut 'n' paste button must have been getting twitchy again... ******* * * Important : please read... * ******* Also, would all those UK readers who are out of bed in time, have a listen to the opening titles of a BBC 2 program called 'Open Saturday' at about 0900. It is either Chris Franke or someone doing a very good TD rip off. Someone please put me out of my misery... Cheers David P.S. Anyone been to the web pages yet? Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1332 Re: X Files Gabe Yedid Fri 2/28/1997 2 KB 1335 Re: X Files Gabe Yedid Fri 2/28/1997 2 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 4:16 pm Subject: Re: X Files Really-From: Gabe Yedid On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, tadream mailing list wrote: > Really-From: dhughes@g... (David J. Hughes) > Also, would all those UK readers who are out of bed in time, have a listen > to the opening titles of a BBC 2 program called 'Open Saturday' at about > 0900. It is either Chris Franke or someone doing a very good TD rip off. > Someone please put me out of my misery... But isn't the UK full of bands that can do very good TD rip-offs? ;) (just HAD to say it) > David > > P.S. Anyone been to the web pages yet? > I'll be sure to have a look! Gabe Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1335 Re: X Files Gabe Yedid Fri 2/28/1997 2 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 4:25 pm Subject: Re: tadream-digest V15 #848 Really-From: 'Marcel Engels' > Really-From: ashok prema > >> Absolutely. Look at AirSculpture, Radio Massacre International and Mark >> Shreeve. They all gone back analogue and have great success with it! >> Great music can also be conceived with digital equipment though. >> >> Marcel > > Well - how do you define success?? None of the above have made a dent > in the music world - whereas TD are world renowned - plus in terms of > sales - the above are miniscule - a couple of thousand perhaps instead > of tens of thousands like TD! Succesful?? certainly not commercially ! > > Ash OK, thats a good question: What is success? They are not commercially successful compared to TD nowadays. Does sales really mean that you are good? When TD just started, were they commercially succesful in the 70s? I don't know the exact number of sales but I don't think they were that succesful. Maybe looking back now. Now that they make more mainstream music they are succesful, but back then it was music for the selected few. *One* example of success for me is right here on this list: When a TD CD is being reviewed here and all of the people gave for example Tangram 5AS and Turn of the Tides 3AS then, for me, Tangram is a bigger success then Tott. The same is for Node, RMI etc. I hear so many people saying they really liked Node, Shreeves music and I hear so many people (not all) complaining about the new TD, then I think those 'new' bands are more successful. Everyone, of course, should decide which music he/she prefers. Marcel From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Thu Jan 1, 1970 4:59 am Subject: TD for Slackers Really-From: Steven Feldman >Subject: Re: tadream-digest V15 #848 >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 03:46:46 -0800 >From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) >Really-From: Mark Filipak > >Whenever I talk with young trip-hoppers and mention TD, I'm amazed by >the number who know the band. Some even know 'Zeit', 'Phaedra', etc. -- >always the older stuff and then, of course 'Dream Mixes' -- not much in >between. [. . .] Easy explanation: they like DREAM MIXES because--of all of TD's output--it comes closest to what they like, i.e. listen to the most, and they like the 1970-1975 material because they've been told or read in the rock press that they're *supposed to* like early 1970's 'krautrock' (Amon Duul, Can, Eloy, Faust, Kraftwerk, Van Der Graf Generator, . . .). It also has something to do with the fact that RUBYCON is perhaps the most sampled analog record by amateur and/or would-be rave mixers. -- Steven Feldman and Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1343 Re: TD for Slackers Mark Filipak Sat 3/1/1997 3 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 4:39 pm Subject: Re: X Files Really-From: Gabe Yedid On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, tadream mailing list wrote: > Really-From: Gabe Yedid > > > But isn't the UK full of bands that can do very good TD rip-offs? ;) > (just HAD to say it) I think I should have added that I meant nothing personal here. (I was thinking more of Airsculpture, RMI, and the like.) Gabe From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 4:55 pm Subject: Jerome's drums Really-From: John Wilson Let's have a straw poll... There has been a lot of criticism of Jerome's drumming recently; am I the only one who like it?! (Basically because his drum sequences ``kick bottom'' as I believe our American cousins would say.) Older TD stuff with drum loops often just either lost the drums in the mix or made you wish you couldn't hear them anyway because they were just a regular Dum ... tick ... tick ... tick ... Splut ... tick ... tick ... tick ... Dum ... tick ... tick ... tick ... Splut ... tick ... tick ... tick ... [etc] I was listening to DM last night and particularly the start of ``CHnage of the Gods'' really caught me because it is so dynamic. I'd be sorry to see that go. John W. Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1341 Re: Jerome's drums dbrewer@a... Fri 2/28/1997 3 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Thu Jan 1, 1970 4:59 am Subject: I *Like* 'Colorado Dawn'! (was Jerome's drums) Really-From: Steven Feldman >Subject: Jerome's drums >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:55:51 +0000 (GMT) >From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) >Really-From: John Wilson > >[. . .] There has been a lot of criticism of Jerome's >drumming recently; am I the only one who like it?! [. . .] Well, quite often, *I* do. One of my fave tracks from CANYON DREAMS is 'Colorado Dawn,' the all-Jerome track that so many people seem to dislike. In fact, when I made a sampler tape of TD's 1990's output for folks who think that TD is an out-of-date and/or New Age band, it was the second track (after 'Dolls in the Shadow') that I put on the tape. (Um, er, it *did* have something to do with the fact that the collection I assembled was arranged in chronological order.) >[. . .] >I was listening to DM last night and particularly the start of ``CHnage >of the Gods'' really caught me because it is so dynamic. I'd be sorry to >see that go. My two fave DREAM MIXES tracks are 'Rough Embrace' (*love* that hyper piano run: best since RICOCHET?) 'Change of the Gods,' the latter because it is so ethereal, sorta like 'Dolls in the Shadow' and 'Touchwood,' with a little bit of 'Remote Viewing' (from EXIT) added in for good measure. Opinions, opinions. (At least I'm not grousing this time, eh?) -- Steven Feldman and From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Thu Jan 1, 1970 4:59 am Subject: 'Ultima Thule' 45 & Ones 45: Both on CD Compilations Really-From: Steven Feldman >Subject: Ultima Thule on a Compilation? >Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:42:29 -0500 (EST) >From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) >Really-From: Vic Rek > >> As it is, 'Ultima Thule' is only on a European compilation CD, and >>for *I* know, this compilation draws from materials from more than one >>label. > >Which compilation CD is this on? Dunno. I just remember seeing it mentioned on this list two or three years ago. Also mentioned at the time was a European compilation CD that has the Ones single, 'Lady Greengrass'/'Love of Mine' on it. -- Steven Feldman and From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 6:10 pm Subject: Really-From: 'Martin R. Mckee' <625732@i...> unsubscribe tadream-digest Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1446 Armin Theissen Wed 3/5/1997 4 KB 1936 Armin Theissen Tue 3/18/1997 2 KB 1959 ashok prema Wed 3/19/1997 3 KB 1962 Re: Mark Filipak Wed 3/19/1997 3 KB 2225 feldon@n... Tue 4/1/1997 2 KB 2228 Re: Greg Tue 4/1/1997 3 KB 2397 - Sun 4/6/1997 2 KB 2466 Martynas Storasta Tue 4/8/1997 2 KB 2706 Darren L Oswald Tue 4/15/1997 2 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 8:23 pm Subject: Re[2]: D:_-_-_-'Tyranny Of Beauty'-_-_-_ Really-From: Brian_Kirby@p... >Really-From: PNaunton@a... > But, Mark, is it REALLY music. Certainly TD has aspired to high >art, and, in several cases I can think of, Made It. 'ToB', 'HoF', & 'L' >doesn't aspire to music. They are simply masturbation. The previous, in my, >maybe/maybe not, humble opinion, of course. >Phil Naunton Ha ha ha ha ha! So that's what that stuff on the inside of my jewel case was! Twenty-eight going on fifteen, B. Kirby From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 8:27 pm Subject: Re: Jerome's drums Really-From: dbrewer@a... > Quoted From: John Wilson > > Let's have a straw poll... There has been a lot of criticism of Jerome's > drumming recently; am I the only one who like it?! (Basically because his > drum sequences ``kick bottom'' as I believe our American cousins would I think he uses some good rhythms, but unfortunately, he tends to recycle them a little too much; until Dream Mixes and Goblins' Club came along and he actually had some new patterns to show off. Being a drummer as well, I pay extra attention to that. I do appreciate how he tends to stay away from the standard 'Boom-chick-Boom-chick' that gets way overused in Pop and Rock anymore. (like in AC/DC's music for example) I guess I'm more into jazzier rhythms. > say.) Older TD stuff with drum loops often just either lost the drums in > the mix or made you wish you couldn't hear them anyway because they were > just a regular > > Dum ... tick ... tick ... tick ... Splut ... tick ... tick ... tick ... > Dum ... tick ... tick ... tick ... Splut ... tick ... tick ... tick ... [etc] I usually consider those drum parts as part of the repetative sequences, only playing with percussive sounds, instead of musical notes. (I love that Quichotte pt2!) ('Splut'?? :-) ) > I was listening to DM last night and particularly the start of ``CHnage > of the Gods'' really caught me because it is so dynamic. I'd be sorry to > see that go. Yeah, I like what he did on that song. Dave Brewer From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 11:11 pm Subject: PCI_VGA Really-From: Mark Filipak Hi All. Found an interesting article. Most of you who are professional musicians probably already have this. A good number of VGA card manufacturers are squeezing out a few extra points on their winbench scores by locking up the PCI bus. This is fine for graphics and most systems on the PC (hard disks and such) don't even notice the problem.... Unfortunately this can hurt the audio system in a big way. It's a rather long article so rather than post whole thing, I will send it to whoever requests it. Contact me off-list please mailto:filipak@k...?subject=PCI_VGA -- Mark From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Fri Feb 28, 1997 11:53 pm Subject: Re: TD for Slackers Really-From: Mark Filipak tadream mailing list wrote: > > Really-From: Steven Feldman > > > Subject: Re: tadream-digest V15 #848 > > Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 03:46:46 -0800 > > From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) > > Really-From: Mark Filipak > > > > Whenever I talk with young trip-hoppers and mention TD, I'm amazed by > > the number who know the band. Some even know 'Zeit', 'Phaedra', etc. > > always the older stuff and then, of course 'Dream Mixes' -- not much > > in between. [. . .] > > Easy explanation: they like DREAM MIXES because--of all of TD's > output--it comes closest to what they like, i.e. listen to the most, > and they like the 1970-1975 material because they've been told or > read in the rock press that they're *supposed to* like early 1970's > 'krautrock' (Amon Duul, Can, Eloy, Faust, Kraftwerk, Van Der Graf > Generator, . . .). It also has something to do with the fact that > RUBYCON is perhaps the most sampled analog record by amateur and/or > would-be rave mixers. > > -- Steven Feldman and > Easy explanation, Steve but I'm not sure it's right. These guys really do prefer to chill to older TD. They don't follow the rock press anyway. In general they detest rock-n-roll and certainly detest anything that smells of 'the press'. I think it has more to do with the fact that bellbottom pants and platform soles are back in style and even more so that people are eating a lot more acid lately. :-) -- Mark From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 4:54 am Subject: Spot the irony! (Re:Compilations...) Really-From: goozer@a... (Hermes Guzman) Greetings all! I really, really, _REALLY_ tried to keep this one in! Basically because it's not polite to laugh at the expense of others, but I just can't help myself these days...: ) It seems that our Mr. Feldman received a rather quick answer to his missive asking Miramar to put together a box set! Within 24 hours of his post, Miramar proved they could hustle with the big guys by releasing their own 5-CD set... a repackaging of the 5 studio albums... at a new low price... with a free poster offer inside! What do you want to bet it's for leftover '92 tour posters? : ) (And before you say it; yes, I _know_ it's a collection, not a compilation. The irony still holds true.) ========================================= Now, to seriously answer his response to my post... Compilations are issued basically to do one thing two ways: make money for the company by (A) getting the fans to purchase another CD, and (B) hopefully increase the fan base by getting the casual listener to 'sample' a 'new' band. The company makes a nice profit either way, as the cost of releasing a compilation (including artist royalties) comes nowhere near a proper release, due to the fact that they own the material already. Which is a good thing, as compilations (for the most popular bands) sell _at best_ half as much as a proper release. The fan hopefully gets a good representation of what the band had to offer during the period covered, while the casual listener hopefully gets a good introduction to the bands' work of that period. Neither one cares how altruistic the label is, only that the music is good. And as far as the company is concerned, the only period that matters is the one to which _they_ hold the rights! When an artist leaves a label, it is rarely on good terms. And as is common, each party may decide for whatever reasons to withold material from licensing (usually the label) or publication (usually the artists undelivered material from that period). The artist almost invariably has no hope of preventing the old label from issuing material already released as part of a compilation, or releasing it to 'Ronco-Tel' for their evil purposes. These types of labels do not directly compete with the major labels. And again, the old label has no desire to see the artist make money for the new label, who _is_ a direct competitor. So in this instance, licensing fees would be (and are in fact) exorbidantly, in some cases even, ludicrously high. Let's also not forget that even when the artist is consulted about a compilation, they may not wish to have certain pieces released, for whatever reason. As regards TD's rarities specifically, and just who is looking for them; again, this list provides a _huge_ clue that your assumption is seriously flawed. A small but noticeable portion of this list _doesn't know_, and in some cases _doesn't care_, about everything out there. It doesn't matter _how_ cheap it is! Remember, this list provides for a _very_ skewed bias towards the truly die-hard fan, so this tends to greatly magnify the idea that we all want everything. As such it is not representative of the fan base at large, who for the most part (in my long experience) are not as...well..._fanatic_. They can take it or leave it, basically. As for the film studios, nowhere did I even _imply_ that they were 'saintly' or 'benificent'. Soundtracks exist for one purpose only: to make money for the studio. If they happen to sell a few more tickets as well, so much the better. This is why you have the 'Flavor of the Month' soundtrack (if applicable) released first, followed (much) later, if at all, by the original score. The labels are interested in that high profile 'Flavor' disc, but have little interest in the 'niche market' score. The studios usually could care less if the score gets out, unless it's to a blockbuster. And unless it's a blockbuster, most every soundtrack is pressed in relatively low numbers one time only. This is both the label and the studio minimizing their risk, as scores in general don't sell very well. The small labels to do manage to get some of these scores out do so by buying the rights to the score, usually outright. Then they hope to make a profit by selling perhaps 10.000 copies, if they're really lucky. It's usually never worth the hassle for any label. To sum it all up, until one label decides that they have to be _the_ label for the entire TD catalog, or Edgar manages to buy back all the rights, your 'UberCollection' will be a really cool bootleg. At least if the sound quality is better than what's already been put out there. Any more questions? goozer From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 7:40 am Subject: Re: Mystery tour dates Really-From: Mark Filipak tadream mailing list wrote: > > Really-From: 'Plumer, Scott' -snip- > 1977 > Denver: TD+s Web site mentions Baumann announced he was leaving in > Denver near the end of the tour, but no mention is made in Voices of > said concert occuring. Could Denver be the mysterious second venue below? First North American Tour 77 [Mar-Apr 77] ENCORE LIVE Riverside Theater, Milwaukee [29 Mar 77] Ford Auditorium, Detroit [31 Mar 77] Convention Center Music Hall, Cleveland [2 Apr 77] Lisner Auditorium, Washington DC [4 Apr 77] Avery Fisher Hall, New York City [5 Apr 77] Convocation Hall, Toronto [?? Apr 77] Place Des Arts, Montreal [10 Apr 77] Hilton Convention Center, Quebec City [11 Apr 77] Dufour Auditorium, Chicoutimi, Canada [?? Apr 77] Paramount Theater, Seattle [21 Apr 77] Civic Auditorium, Santa Monica [25 Apr 77] Second North American Tour 77 Greek Theater, Los Angeles [12 Jul 77] ? -second venue- ? Edgar injured in equestrian accident - cuts tour off. -- Mark From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 10:14 am Subject: Info on CDs and CDRs Really-From: Mark Filipak This link below will take you to a series of Kodak articles on CD and CDR technologies, their expected lifetimes, and steps to take to preserve them. http://www.Kodak.com/daiHome/techInfo/permanence.shtml From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 11:11 am Subject: stratosfear 1994 / FAQ Really-From: 'Lars R. Jones' <105411.3107@c...> Dreamers, sorry if my postings have seemed a little behind lately, I can only upload/download my mail about 2-3 times a week. But I wanted to clarify these queries (if someone else already has, forgive me) since I have all? 3 TOB releases and 2 of TOTT I hope Hermes doesn't mind if I help him out with a humble attempt at an FAQ answer of my own. >From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) >Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 20:13:37 -0500 >Subject: Re: D:_-_-_-'Tyranny Of Beauty'-_-_-_ >Really-From: goozer@a... (Hermes Guzman) >I can't understand that everyone is talking about Stratosfear 1995, my copy >of Tyranny of Beauty really says Stratosfear 1994. Does somebody else >also have this 1994 version? >Marcel >Uh...double check it to make sure. I have the original Miramar release and >the TDI re-issue and they both list it as 'Stratosfear '95'. >goozer Marcel must have the AMP records version of TOB which, as I've just noticed, lists 'Stratosfear 1995' (Miramar & TDI releases) as 'Stratosfear 1994'. The AMP Records version of TOB (AMP-CD 027 ) is the UK-only release (although it obviously must have ended up in Canada too unless Marcel mail-ordered his); both the TDI (TDI002CD--steve you are indeed correct!) and AMP releases are now available in the UK. Additionally, there is the US-only (north america only?) Miramar release (which I don't have with me). across the bottom back cover the AMP release says: AMP Records PO Box 387, London N22 6SF, United Kingdom There is, of course, the possibility (which I can't confirm) that the AMP release is a pirate but I doubt it.... The AMP release cover insert artwork is very close to the TDI/Miramar releases, except that the AMP uses a slightly lighter shade of blue on the cover and a different type font. Beyond that, The band (in yellow) and title (blue green) are listed at the top of the AMP release whereas the on the Miramar/TDI release, TD is at the top and TOB is at the bottom (both in a warm yellow color). Other differences include no UPC label on the AMP, the track times are listed in parentheses on the AMP version. On the Miramar/TDI release, the front cover art is about 10% larger than the AMP while on the reverse, the AMP has artwork about 10% larger. On the AMP insert, the track listing and credits are on the inside in black on and white with two pictures of Jerome, edgar and linda in venice; on the back of the insert in white on black the credits are listed with another photo of the band with Carnival hats in a gondola. The AMP version is also missing the text on the back cover that states all tracks by EF and JF 'except stratosfear 1995 and largo' and the appropriate credits for those tracks are also missing on the back cover. The TDI release says 'made in austria'. Additionally the TD logo is missing on the AMP release. Musically, the AMP and TDI are the same; both include the Bonus track Quasar; musically there is no difference (that I can hear) between the two copies and the listed track & times are exactly the same. I believe that the TDI and Miramar releases differ only in respect to the bonus track 'quasar' which does not appear on the North American release (only on the miramar TOB promo single). I'm fairly certain that TD must have contracted for this release since TDI may not have had the appropriate license or distribution network for the UK at the time of the release. It would be interesting to know about how many copies of the AMP release were put out and whether it is still in print. Can anyone confirm/answer this? Now, on to TOTT: There are at least three versions of TOTT, two were mentioned by Steve F. (his TDI copy is, I expect, a reissue), the other (which may be a reissue, or a UK-only version) is Coast to Coast / Zabo Music CTCZ 108 which includes the bonus track 'Story of the Brave'. This insert for this version is essentially identical to the US version (with the 'special edition - limited picture disk' bubble on the US cd and the words 'Includes Bonus-Track Story of the Brave' on the zabo version) ; they of course also differ with regard to the miramar/zabo labels and addresses. The Miramar picture disc is clearly labelled MPCD 2806 and dated 1994; the 'picture' is a screened print violet blue that fades toward the center (so that it produces a donut effect) and pink 'teeth marks' / dentiles are used in semicircles (half the spindle area is pink also); the song titles and times are also listed along the outside edge of the cd. It is not much of a picture disc! the Zabo one has the same pink dentiles but a uniform light blue-green screening and no track titles; there is no date on the zabo disc although the booklet (stapled just like the miramar release) includes the P & C 1994 Tadream music/production inc. Lars (Hermes, do I get a now prize too? :-) On a few other topics: --Did anyone get 'the Brick'? is the poster offer limited edition or ?? any indication of what it is? are the miramar singles included? --In reference to 'True North' it is not a movie or even a TD video, it is a Miramar compilation video/cd/laserdisc that features one? track by TD (sorry I don't have it with me) just like several other miramar compilations. True north is, however, quite a good compiliation (musically and visually) and I always enjoy seeing TD put to film/video. In fact, it's showing on all continental flights to europe this month. Somewhere at home I have the Miramar list of all this stuff on which TD appears; A video compiliation of TD would be a great tape! lars From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 11:10 am Subject: essay: Michelangelo & TD, Part I Really-From: 'Lars R. Jones' <105411.3107@c...> MA & TD essay, Part I Ritual Disclaimers: 1) Warning! this is a very long post in 2 parts; please feel free to skip this (apologies to TLM) 2) This essay does contain substantial, TD-relevant, deep, dark, 'socially evil' commentary; just bear & bare with me; 3) This is not malicious, anti-TD/EF, or a personal attack on anyone. 4) This is written as a critical/analytical essay and NOT just under the guise of random thoughts 'IMO' written IMO (unless noted): please try to read it that way (if in doubt, refer to #3 above) Hermes, Steve, Mark, et al., I'm sure as an artist (Hermes), you've had some art history and so know something about what you are saying. The problem is, however, when invoking Michelangelo as an example, that one must realize there are at least two different 'Michelangelos': one is the person the 'real' Michelangelo wanted us to know/believe in; this is the person to whom you seem to be referring but who is as much a fiction as 'The Coachman's Tales.' As I will attempt to demonstrate here, Michelangelo very carefully crafted his own self image; he was very conscious of his position in history and systematically destroyed thousands of pieces of correspondence, drawings and what he thought were 'inferior' works because they detracted from his image as infalliable, divinely inspired genius (he was perhaps the first artist to have done so). Still we have a lot of material remaining from him but probably the most important and problematic creation was his self-image/myth--which is coincident with the notion of the artist as heroic but tragic, a loner/outsider unappreciated and not understood by his contemporaries but literally divinely inspired. This is the 'myth' of MA (MichelAngelo) that persists in too many uncritical treatments of his work--including some textbooks and the film 'The Agony and the Ecstasy'. The 'other' Michelangelo is the 'real' historical person whom we can never know--but to whom you seem to be referring/confusing with the 'myth.' We can, however, attempt to come to terms with this historical person as someone completely different from the mythological 'Michelangelo.' To do so, we create an alternate fiction based on different sorts of data (in the end, it is still a fiction but, I would argue, less of a fiction the The Myth). The first step in doing this is to realize that Michelangelo, as most of us have come to know him, is little more than a self-created fiction (I shall return to this later). Now this is not just the beginning of a non-TD diatribe. Let me attempt to elucidate the problem before us because it has direct bearing on our dicussion of Tangents, EF and TD in general. Bear with me while I contrast the fiction 'MA The Myth' (employed by Hermes) with one alternate fiction of MA (the art historical). My intention is not to ridicule or to attack Hermes or anyone else (he is certainly entitled to his opinion and has every right to express it, that is beyond question) but to draw attention to some logically 'dangerous' and problematic arguments within our own realm of criticism (TD). Please remember that I have previously expressed my undying love for TD's music etc. and so feel no need to restate my opinions in this essay. Sections of the following text excerpted from: >Really-From: goozer@a... (Hermes Guzman) [...] >Perhaps no better example to this is MIchelangelo. He was a sculptor by >trade, and created the most beautiful statuary and reliefs known to man [this, of course, should read: 'IMO'] In fact, Michelangelo began his artistic career as a painter; he was apprenticed to Domenico Ghirlandaio. The sculptor claim was made in his in his own letters and in the biography allegedly written by his semi-literate assistant Condivi but now believed by many historians to have been written by MA (MichelAngelo) himself in response to Giorgio Vasari's 'Life of Michelangelo' in the 1st edition of Vasari's 'Lives of the Artists' which MA did not like (in much the same manner that Edgar speaks of critics); in his 2nd edition of the 'Lives,' Vasari published the document proving that Michelangelo began his career as a painter; a second edition of Condivi was never forthcoming and Condivi returned to his small town and small art. This of course implies that MA's work on the Sistine ceiling might not quite as remarkable since, if we are to believe the sources and poorer historians, his claim that painting was not 'his art' is demonstrably false. Indeed, he had painted at least three _major_ works for private patrons (not counting works lost and the work done as an apprentice to Ghirlandaio) before the Sistine: the Manchester Madonna, the London Entombment (both London, National Gallery) and the Doni Tondo (Florence, Galleria degli Uffizi). The fact that his works are judged as the summit of beauty by 'modern `man'' is to propagate the 'realist' misconception of art, to which I shall return momentarily. MA's art was a product of his time, just like TD's music is a product of ours. What is important to note here is the humanist notion priviledging 'art' as an endless 'evolutionary' march toward more and more perfect naturalism/illusionism/realism so that any 'fall' or divergence from this path is held to be one toward decline and decadence--you aren't a 'photorealist' are you Hermes? I didn't think so. This misconception of art as a teleological/goal-directed 'evolution' toward greater realism was first perpetrated by the Florentines themselves in the late 13th and early 14th century in which it was essentially used as a nationalistic gesture. In the early 15th century, 'realism' was synthesized with 'classicism' (this is also where the notion of the 'Renaissance' as something different from the 'Middle Ages' originates). At this time, the quality of art was judged by what I have termed elsewhere 'the canon of naturalism/realism' where art ('type') was valued more highly the closer it approached the natural/the real ('prototype') (NB: this concept of the 'natural' or the 'real' was slightly different than our own). Soon this value system was appropriated by the artists themselves in their bid for higher social, economic and intellectual status and we observe a period of 'competitive naturalism' (eg: Leonardo). By the time MA began work on the Sistine, the 'best' artists had just plied their way far enough up the social-intellectual ladder that they could take some liberty in rendering the prototype; thus was born 'Mannerism,' a period in which most of MA's work belongs including IMO the Sistine Ceiling. 'Realism' in the service of the Catholic Church took on even greater impetus (albeit with less artistic liberty) after the Reformation and Counter-Reformation. In late 17th century and early 18th century France, 'realism' once again came to be associated with the artist's desire for a higher status (it took about a century longer in France than in Italy for the 'medieval' workshop tradition to break down and reassert itself in the form of the art academy). As the French monarchy collapsed in its own decadence (and partly under the model of the American Revolution) and as the French struggled through political crises, certain 'classical'/'realist' modes of discourse (artistic, moral, literary, political, etc.) came to be asserted again for nationalistic/propangandistic purposes. Further impetus came from the class struggles inherent in the breakdown of an imperially stratified society where 'realist' values were often used to assert the primacy of the upper classes by overt reference: we are cultured in the classical tradition, therefore we have the right to dominate you (a sort of secular parallel to rule by divine right). The power vaccum brought by the collapse of the French monarchy had no small impact on the era of Neoclassicism in which much of Europe and the newly independent US had enveloped themselves. The dominant and 'cultured' classes sought (and still do seek, eg: Jesse Helms) to perpetuate their supposed supremacy by reference to 'classical' and 'realist' values and to suppress the uneducated (and thus 'uncultured') lower classes. This was the era in which the myth of Michelangelo and the 'modern' artist really came strongly to the fore, especially in the wake of the work of German scholars like Wincklemann (whose text on the virtues of classical sculpture was immensely influential for the formation/enculturation of our own tastes) and Burckhardt (whose notion that modernity and the individual were products of the Renaissance was in no small way dependent on Michelangelo). By the industrialization and urbanization of the mid-19th century, 'modern' artists had begun to rebel against the 'realist' CLASS-ical tradition. These artists, who we tend to think of as the first 'modern' artists, refused to work in classical styles and genres or to create art with classical subject matter. In doing so, they fashioned themselves as the rebels of a brave new world (much like TD did in the late 60s and 70s). 'Modern' art, however, is not necessarily the great 'novel' invention it is asserted to be. That is, 'modernity' should be seen as just a self-constructed myth that seeks to define itself as not dependent on the 'realist' / 'classical' mode. Of course, this construction itself relies heavily on the Michelangelian notion of the anti-establishment artist-genius doing his own thing with no reference to audience or patron (do you see the TD parallel?). Thus, we in the 20th century are left with an obscured legacy: the last century has created a taste for a 'realist' mode of art that is highly structured along class (and gender) lines; 'modern' art has further perpetrated a conception of art and artist that is not only self-perpetuating but also self-reassuring when confronted with an artist like Michelangelo. By failing to comes to terms with its own 'realist' origins, 'modern' art has not only failed to obscure the source it sought to reject but has, in fact, perpetuated and elevated it. If we can see any historical 'truth' it is only 'through a glass darkly'. The same could be said of Edgar and the anti-establishment context from which TD's music emerged--but let me return to this later. Michelangelo had his own nationalistic/political, personal and social agenda, just as I am sure that TD has its own agenda--albeit a somewhat more veiled agenda. The supposedly a-political concerts in Poland and E. Berlin obviate rather than disprove this point because TD's motivations can be read in at least three ways: 1) as altruistic acts done in 'solidarity' with 'the people' and in opposition to the Communist Governments (TD's claim), 2) as acts motivated by pure self-interest in complete disregard for their 'audiences' and fans in these two venues (a 'miscognition' to which we shall return later), and 3) as acts of tacit cooperation and collusion with the Communist governments: they were allowed to play either because the government did not perceive them to be a threat or because they in fact were not a threat. Choosing not to enter the political arena is to engage in a negating dialogue, one where your 'voice' is only 'heard' by virtue of its absence. Take Edgar's quote about music being pure and above the political world; that is nothing but bullshit--but we _want_ to believe it. Music is no purer than any other form of discourse. No 'artistic' mode of communication, no matter how far it strays from verbal, visual or aural referents, can ever be a-political or without meaning for that matter (for how do you differentiate what is 'political' from what is not? I don't really need to give examples here do I?). EF's quote is nothing other than a form a negating discourse and his voice is not being heard; TD's status as a 'non-threat' is the product of a negating discourse. >was also an architect (later in life), and gave us St. Peters in Rome. He Donato Bramante (in the first years of the 16th century) is the one who originally designed and began work on the New St. Peter's. He was followed as papal architect (after his death) by Raphael and San Gallo (both of whom also died in office) and then MA. Indeed, others followed MA but he is not the original source (though admittedly he exerted the most influence over the final outcome but this may be due, among other considerations, to the length of his tenure as papal architect). >was at last a painter, and though he felt that his talent here was He was first a painter, see above. >secondary, he gave us the Sistine Chapel Ceiling, perhaps the most >transcendant painting ever done [you mean 'IMO' ]. It was also _not_ what his patron >expected. Had he listened to Pope Julius, his 'public', the result would I would beg to differ about transcendence, but that is just MO. What did Julius II want? Did he--as MA himself claims--give MA free reign to do anything he pleased in the most important church in the world? Yes, the Sistine Chapel was and is the power center of the Christian/Catholic world. This is where all private papal masses and papal ceremonies take place (ceremonies are about nothing other than the display of power and the allowing of access to a ceremony is in itself a very significant exercise of power). The Sistine (it takes its name from Pope Sixtus IV) was built in the 15th century as the new site of papal ceremonial. As such, it replaced the Sancta Sanctorum chapel at the Lateran (the Lateran Basilica was and is the official papal church although the popes had taken up residence in the Vatican Palace after the papacy returned from its 'Babylonian captivity' in France in the 14th century). The importance of the Sancta Sanctorum (and its replacement the Sistine) is indicated by its inscription 'There is no holier place on earth.' ('Sancta Sanctorum' means Holy of Holies and is an appropriation of the concept of the most sacred part of Jewish temple--described in Exodus--which was the nexus between the earthly and heavenly realms and thus the focus of religious and secular power). The same meaning, it is clear, was codified into the Sistine Chapel and its ceremonial as well. I and many other historians (yes, I am an art historian) seriously doubt that such an important work in such an important place would be trusted to solely to the whims of ANY artist. It is typical at this time that patrons (often through theological advisors) exerted substantial control over any significant work (especially religious works!) and we have every reason to suspect that Julius II did the same. Indeed, there are several precedents to the Sistine (in form and content) that were known to Julius II but completely unknown to Michelangelo. Clearly, Julius II knew what he wanted and got it. This is not to say that MA couldn't still exert substantial influence: he did but we clearly cannot trust his own self-assertatons on this matter. >have been diametrically different. Instead, he listened to another Voice, As should be clear by now, I am suggesting that not only did Michelangelo 'listen' to his audience/patron but that he actively created the physical image that Julius II wanted but the self-image of how he wanted it and himself to be seen by us-- the 'beholder' participates in every illusion/deception by definition. >and changed forever the face of art. This is not to compare TD to >Michelangelo, of course, but to support the ideal that they both aspire to. Well, if we want to get right down to it, a drainage problem that caused the Sistine's foundations to settle and its original vaulted ceiling to crack and leak so that its plaster decoration began to fall off in chunks with the threat of severe bodily injury may be the 'real' reason for this 'change' :-) Although the Sistine ceiling frescoes were never really responsible for a 'change' in the face of art. [...] >3) Michelangelo's understudies. Back to the Renaissance. Every great artist Most artists, great or not, had assistants (many were slaves from Africa and the 'Middle East'); these 'garzoni' or shop boys, were especially used for the prepatory 'grunt' work (like washing walls, mixing pigments, applying plaster and even for providing sexual favors to The Master). Although it is true that some garzoni were talented and did became masters most never amounted to anything. These garzoni should be differentiated from apprentices (whose families arranged for their training) and who were intended to become independent masters after the completion of their apprenticeship. This point isn't really applicable to TD, since it would be saying something like: the janitors in Edgar's studio work their way up to the mixing table and then on to the drum machine, guitar and synthesizer; eventually they become part of the band before finally striking out on their own sucessful careers. >had in his employ numerous understudies to assist with their work in some >fashion. Some of these understudies went on to become masters in their own >right (look 'em up, I won't say who!) Michelangelo had hired five men to Actually very few of his assistants are of any note (note that Vasari was not his assistant); Sebastiano del Piombo being an exception (although not a very substantial one).... >assist him to paint the Sistine ceiling, and they all worked with him for a >time. However, they were all...er..._let go_, and Michelangelo completely >erased what they had done and started anew. In it's execution, they were >part of a collaborative effort, yet the 'founder' completely recast their Yes he started with some assistants (some where used only for paint-mixing and plastering) but there are also other reasons for letting them go (not the least of which was the financial crises brought on by Julius' military campaigns when even MA didn't get paid). There are also many other reasons for destroying this previous work, not the least of which may be his historical sense of self-image. Indeed, MA was a loner to a large degree (Raphael depicted him this way in the nearby fresco, the 'School of Athens' in a very derogatory representation). Perhaps this is partly related to his personality which seems to have been quite unpleasant (if you were a peer or subordinate). >'contributions'. Is the ceiling any less for this fact? I hardly think so. >Sure, the assistants' weren't the equal of Michelangelo, but they were >talented in their own right. Yet their vision didn't agree with >Micelangelo's vision, and it is his vision that mattered. There is absolutely no basis for these assertions. Again, I would argue that it was the pope's vision that mattered. Michelangelo too answered to a higher authority even if he would have us believe otherwise. (Essay continues in Part II) From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 11:10 am Subject: essay: MA & TD, Part 2 Really-From: 'Lars R. Jones' <105411.3107@c...> MA & TD Essay: part II Hermes, I don't mean to ridicule you or berate you by picking apart your comments; I too have used MA as an example to defend Tangents, particularly in relation toEF's recasting of previous works (although using completely different examples and situations). Normally I wouldn't have responded to these 'errors in fact' but I think there is a broader and more important sub-text here, one that directly concerns TD and the various recent criticisms of Tangents. Part of what is at issue is MA's own self-projected and self-created image and its relation to TD/EF (as opposed to someone like MA's contemporaries Raphael and Leonardo, both artists as great or greater IMO, but who never seem to have engaged in any sort of this fanatical self-representational behavior). Your comparison to 'MA the myth' is well taken but only if we compare this to 'TD/EF the myth,' the TD most of us know is the TD created through their music and words--self-creations, controlled in their dispensations through limited access to the original source. As with MA, there are two TDs/EFs and I don't think this argument/comparison works. I would also argue that TD, like many artists, is very aware of the image it projects and that EF is, like MA was, a consumate businessman (a point not addressed in your post but implied in the posts of others). Was MA concerned with whether or not the patron/audience liked his work? I think so, absolutely: the Pope held the power over MA's spiritual life and eternal damnation (and Julius II spared/saved MA's corporeal skin more than once). To imply that MA was unconcerned with religion and the future of his soul is simply naieve and demonstrably not the case. Had Julius II not liked or objected to the Sistine ceiling you can bet every one of your TD rarities that it would have come down pronto or been stopped in the act. Church doctrine is neither instigated nor instituted by artists, doctrine begins with theologians; the same goes for interpretations (of which MA's work is one example). Does TD need to consider their audience this way? It doesn't really matter since they are not working under the same circumstances; were they composing under someone who held the very real power of life and death in his/her hands, you can bet they would be listening. I would also suggest that, despite what he says, Edgar has listened to his critics/audiences in the past (Cyclone being one example, not touring in Germany being another) and does so to some extent now even though he doesn't want us to believe it (that is part of the myth). You can bet that if TD released a new album and nobody but the 400 people on this list bought it, TD wouldn't be releasing more material in that style again--regardless of what EF thought about its artistic merit. Our image of TD is based on what we are told and what we are NOT TOLD by TD/EF (take the case of TDNAN). To say that EF does NOT do something many of us would find unpalatable/indecorous, like releasing Tangents solely to make money, is just as naieve as saying he did do it for that reason (unless you have knowledge to which we are not privy). Further, we must consider the source and its reliability. Even if Edgar came out and said no, he was never concerned with money when he reworked Tangents, could he really be taken at his word? How do we index his trustworthiness as a source? By our love of his music? By that ear-to-ear smile? Do we really know what he was doing/what his motivations were? A good example is Dali--now I don't need to remind you of his relevance to EF-- he was an artist who was also the biggest perpetrator of artistic self-fraud that we know. He would do things like sign blank sheets of paper and sell them so that 'original Dalis' could be printed or painted (by someone else) and sold by dealers to innocent fans and admirers and aspiring collectors! Now I don't think that Edgar would ever stoop to that level but the point is: can the art/motivations/ statements of someone like Dali--who shows so little regard for his audience as to have no qualms about ripping them off purposely--ever be taken seriously in the same light again? To bring it to another level, Edgar claims to show a blatant disregard for his 'audience' & critics (albeit more so in print and less so in concert) . He says that he/TD never consider audience/critics' opinions in the creation of their works (as I have argued, I don't believe that really to be the case). This being said, can we really assume, then, when it comes to remixing projects like Tangents, etc. that his motivations are altruistic or 'purely artistic' and not financial? How do you _know_ that he is not ripping us off? He doesn't seem to care what we think--at least that is what he SAYS. Do you see where I am heading? The point is not whether EF has a 'right' to rework the material (that is beyond debate). The point is that the text/myth we create based on his mis/information is inherently a paradox: Like 'realist' art, we priviledge the idea of the altruistic artist-hero (MA/EF) charging boldly into the uncharted future, braving the critical tide and surrounded only by the loyal, illuminated few (and most of us on Tadream do not fall into that category)--he can do no wrong; further, we assume that as 'fans' we participate in some small but distant way in his enlightenment and artistic vision (we buy his work). This is an image which, I would argue, we (the fans and the culture) have created for Edgar (or any 'great' artist) and which Edgar very knowingly supports (whether he admits it or not). Yet we fail to see that, interwoven within Edgar's presentation/perpetuation of this realist/artist as hero myth that we value so dearly, there are a number of signs that directly contradict the realist myth: if EF doesn't care about his audience what is to stop him, like Dali, from taking advantage of them? If EF does not listen to his audience, then he acts in his own self-interest. If we admit that EF acts out of self-interest (which he must do, the question is only one of degree) has he become part of the establishment from which we seek to differentiate him? If EF/TD return/s to the past, is he/are they no longer exploring uncharted territories? If Edgar considers his audience (as he certainly does to some degree) is he no longer braving the critical tide? Has he 'sold-out'? If EF is guilty of one of these short-comings, does he no longer meet our definition of the 'artist-hero'? Is his artistic production and its merit then called into question and, further, is our self-conscious identification/participation in his artistic 'enlightenment' thrown into doubt? Of course, we don't like to address this paradox (we just stop buying TD cds after or before a certain year as, for example, is suggested by the analog vs. digital debate). When myth and deed don't square we tend either to deny it or to 'rationalize' it, thereby creating a 'miscognition' (we mutually agree to pretend otherwise without ever saying so); that is, we choose to create or subscribe to an alternatively preferable reality. Unfortunately, when a miscognition mutually held by a culture/society (we on Tadream form our own little sub-culture) is called into question, what usually happens is that the offender who called attention to the miscognition is punished/attacked as a heretic or an idiot. Calling attention to a miscognition is to threaten the very fibers that hold the society/culture together. Bear with me now since I am about to tie this all together. Let's try this critical analysis from another viewpoint in the context of the present Tangents debate: Fact: Edgar remixed the material on Tangents; theory 1) EF did it for the money. Would a 'greatest Virgin years hits' sell without any new material? The prevailing sentiment on this list is no. The music industry knows this (even 'the Brick' offers a poster--ooh boy); EF knows this. It is _unarguable_ that new mixes and new tracks were seen as a way to make Tangents more marketable (it is the motivation for these remixes that we seek or, perhaps, wish not to seek). Still, this is not conclusive evidence that he did or did not do it for the money. Nor can this point be resolved logically by resorting to the amount of effort involved in Tangent's production since that just furthers implies the possibility that the motive was profit (since more new material should equal more sales). Note, the theory is not 'EF needs the money' / 'EF doesn't need the money' --this is another miscognition. Indeed EF has stated this very point--that he does not NEED the money. We _never_ say: 'EF _wants_ the money' because this does not square with the anti-establishment, artist-hero/'realist' myth. But once we ask 'Does EF _want_ the money' we run into the real issue in this part of the debate and the one that throws the very essence of _The Myth_ into question: could EF really be acting out of blatant self-interest and, dare we say it, 'greed'? Here we slam into another social paradox: the indentification of our perception of the artist and his/her work. Our appreciation for MA's work is only heightened by our participation in the 'realist' myth of MA as divinely inspired artist-genius. We like the Myth, so we presume to like the artist and thus we like his/her works; it also works the other way 'round. By participating (buying or looking), we presume to elevate ourselves closer to the prototype (and so to share in the artist's 'enlightenment'). To phrase it another way: if Edgar were being greedy or, for that matter, if he were behaving like Stalin (etc.), would we still like his music? We certainly seem to believe that evil minds produce evil works (the socio-moral prohibition against employing the results of the Nazi medical experiments on the Jews being a case in point). I have now, of course, brought our sub-culture's first miscognition into the light.... Here, then, we arrive at Theory 2) Because he is an artist, EF intended the remixes on Tangents, etc. as artistic productions, therefore they must be 'art' ('realist' sub-text: therefore they are sacred and beyond 'our' challenge). Here, we also run dead-on into the 'intentionalist fallacy': because EF is an artist we say he intended the remixes on Tangents to be 'art' and attempt to prove this with direct reference to Tangents itself as art, a point that is 'proved' by saying 'either you get it or you don't', it is not for us mere mortals to judge the artist-hero. Edgar is an artist therefore Tangents is art; Tangents is art because Edgar is an artist. Do you see the vicious circle forming? I have now brought the second of our sub-culture's miscognitions brought to light... There is, of course, another and, I believe, more rational approach to the argument: that is to admit both points have merit until proven otherwise (by external reference). Did Edgar want the money? Sure, why not, he IS human, isn't he? Is that wrong? or, more to the point, is he being greedy/socially immoral? I can't answer that but not because I don't want to know; there is just no external indication and judgment must be withheld. If you ask me 'but what do you think/believe?' You've fallen into another trap and proven the point 'belief shapes society, society doesn't shape belief.' Once I think/believe EF did or did not consciously _want_ the money, I have negated the need for evidence; I have now chosen either to participate or not to participate in our first miscognition. Does Tangents have artistic merit? Sure it does but NOT because 'it is art' or because EF 'is an artist' (second miscognition). It has artistic merit simply because I, the individual beholder, _say_ it does (NB: this question is not about belief). I say it is art/has artistic merit solely because it engages me emotionally and rationally and irrationally in such a way that it correlates with my internalized (socially structured) pre-/conception of 'art': such is the essence of the discourse between the beholder and the object/artist. Other beholders have the right to perceive Tangents as 'not-art' and to state that case on this forum. We know what EF says but does the beholder _really_ matter? Absolutely! Who _ELSE_ is supposed to decide whether to piss in that Urinal or to contemplate it! (That, however, is another essay and it is time I ended this one.) cheers! Lars (self-designated list heretic :-) (HG:I've lost that prize now, right?) Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1356 Re: essay: MA & TD, Part 2 arnold kalnitsky Sat 3/1/1997 4 KB 1359 Re: essay: MA & TD, Part 2 Vic Rek Sun 3/2/1997 2 KB 1365 Re: essay: MA & TD, Part 2 gary.cresswell1@v... Sun 3/2/1997 3 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 9:36 pm Subject: Trip Hoppers Really-From: dhughes@g... (David J. Hughes) Hi All, >> in terms of sales - the above are miniscule - a couple of thousand >> perhaps instead of tens of thousands like TD! Succesful?? >> certainly not commercially ! Why do you think their sales are miniscule? They create a product which EM fans the world over would give their right arms for. Reason : we can't get the distribution, we can't get the airplay, we can't get a decent deal that would guarantee some kind of return on our investment. >Whenever I talk with young trip-hoppers and mention TD, I'm amazed by >the number who know the band. Some even know 'Zeit', 'Phaedra', etc. -- >always the older stuff and then, of course 'Dream Mixes' -- not much in >between. Hmmmm.... -- Mark Total agreement here, Mark. Everyone : Handy hint : take a trip to the latest 'Rave' bar or student's union in Newcastle and ask anyone of the cool trendy (weird) clubbers if they've heard of TD and the response is instant : Edgar is highly thought of and respected. TD started it all. Rave acts use TD as the inspiration for thier new music. Ever listened to the 'new' rave bands? Go to a night club and listen to some of the bass riffs these folk are playing. You may even hear a mellotron crooning in the background. Cheers David From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 5:28 pm Subject: Re: Would you support a 70's TD today ? Really-From: PhilPDX@a... In a message dated 97-02-27 13:39:40 EST, you write: << Absolutely. Look at AirSculpture, Radio Massacre International and Mark Shreeve. They all gone back analogue and have great success with it! Great music can also be conceived with digital equipment though. >> Exactly what I was going to say Marcel? Would I support a 70's TD sound today? I would and I do!!! I own works by all of the above, though I'm sure you refer to Shreeve's Redshift, which I don't yet have - hope to someday soon! Long live 70's like TD in these and other great bands! There is a LOT to still be done with this style, and I enjoy it immensely. Phil D. From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 5:28 pm Subject: Re: What is this list about? (was Re: New Day) Really-From: PhilPDX@a... In a message dated 97-02-27 01:24:07 EST, you write: << Well, my post apparently hit some hot bottons and it blew up. I don't take back a word of it and I recommend rereading Goozer's post and mine. But to make it simple, and putting all principles and methods aside, I guess what is essental and what I ask that everybody who is bashing the band and Edgar please stop. No more 'Sickening' threads, please. Regards -- Mark >> No one asked you to take anything back. In return, please don't tell us what we should or should not say. I respect your right to your opinion, and respect others. If they want to bash Edgar and the band (which I've done on one or two points, and later wished I hadn't), it's their right. I admit, I prefer older TD, but I DO keep buying their CD's. :-) And I always want to hear other listeners' opinions, good and bad, to help me in my listening choices. Phil D. From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 5:28 pm Subject: Re: What is this list about? (was Re: New Day) Really-From: PhilPDX@a... In a message dated 97-02-26 21:30:31 EST, you write: << This is a relatively low-bandwidth list with a relatively high signal to noise ratio, I think it is not a good idea to mess with something that is working. If this were an extremely high-bandwidth list, it might warrant splitting up, but the fact is, it really isn't working that badly. >> Great post, Dave. I sometimes think the list goes off on 'Tangents' (couldn't resist) that I'd rather not, and once in awhile it annoys me, but that's my problem. People are free to say what they want, as long as it doesn't deteriorate into a series of personal attacks against each other, which happens rarely on this list, and we seem pretty good at self-policing for that sort of thing. I've been on the list for 2 years now (unbelieveable how time flies - my daughter will turn 1 next Friday), and enjoy it immensely. There is no better place for TD-related information that I've found, not to mention great recommendations for TD-like music from great new artists. And considering what a diverse group we are, I think this is one of the most polite, open-minded lists I've found. Phil D. From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 5:50 pm Subject: Digest V15 #849 ??? about 'Lady Greengrass' Really-From: Craig Shipley Hello, I think that the single in question was released in the early '90's on a German compilation CD series titled something like 'Best Of The Star Club Vol. 2'. Don't have it so I cannot confirm it, but I do remember reading about in the TDIFC newsletter. As far as 'Ultima Thule', I don't think that it has ever seen the legitimate light of laser... Craig Shipley craigs@p... Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1358 Re: Digest V15 #849 ??? about 'Lady Greengrass' Vic Rek Sun 3/2/1997 2 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sun Mar 2, 1997 1:45 am Subject: Re: tadream-digest V15 #849 Really-From: ashok prema Really-From: 'Marcel Engels' > Really-From: ashok prema > >> Absolutely. Look at AirSculpture, Radio Massacre International and Mark >> Shreeve. They all gone back analogue and have great success with it! >> Great music can also be conceived with digital equipment though. >> >> Marcel > > Well - how do you define success?? None of the above have made a dent > in the music world - whereas TD are world renowned - plus in terms of > sales - the above are miniscule - a couple of thousand perhaps instead > of tens of thousands like TD! Succesful?? certainly not commercially ! > > Ash OK, thats a good question: What is success? They are not commercially successful compared to TD nowadays. Does sales really mean that you are good? When TD just started, were they commercially succesful in the 70s? I don't know the exact number of sales but I don't think they were that succesful. Maybe looking back now. Now that they make more mainstream music they are succesful, but back then it was music for the selected few. *One* example of success for me is right here on this list: When a TD CD is being reviewed here and all of the people gave for example Tangram 5AS and Turn of the Tides 3AS then, for me, Tangram is a bigger success then Tott. The same is for Node, RMI etc. I hear so many people saying they really liked Node, Shreeves music and I hear so many people (not all) complaining about the new TD, then I think those 'new' bands are more successful. Everyone, of course, should decide which music he/she prefers. Marcel ------------------------------ However we define 'success' on an individual basis, in general discussion - we HAVE to take into account the general meaning of the word as used in the English language. On a personal level, I would consider sales of 1000 cd's of my own music a financial succes since I will have made a cuople of thousand pounds from it - but to a disinterested party it would not be a succes once yu take into account the equipment costs (inc depreciation), the hundreds of man hours spent etc. Once these are costed - as they should be in any real business, a few thousand cd sales would not spell any sort of success in the business world. RMI, AirSculpture, Shreeve and Node - produce fine music no doubt - but even Shreeve himself and Node would admit that the 'TD style 1975' type music is a labour of love - as the costs far outweigh the income - assuming there be any at all. Node spent 10.000 Pounds to play a live gig at Paddington Station - they got TV exposure - yet there sales have not really taken off. Last I heard they had sold around 7000 copies - great by any 'back-bedroom/home studio' type musicians - but this figure doesn't even go anywhere near covering the cost of the equipment. To my mind, success is either having record sales in excess of 30,000 per release, or being signed up by a major label with a hefty advance (say 50,000 UK Pounds) and then producing well selling albums.(many new acts dive and are never heard of again!) Perhaps TD cannot meet these criteria nowadays, but they did at some stage in their careers - making them a succesful band. Also, it is a measure of TD's success that they can fill a 2000 seat hall after 20 years - OK this pales into insignificance when you compare with , say other major names who can fill Wembley Stadium - but TD continue to make a living producing music - and I'm pretty certain, that in the industry, everyone has heard of the name 'Tangerine Dream' - even though they may not have heard any of their music. - I doubt this can be said of Node, AirSculpture etc (sadly!) Finally, TD DO have a comfortable lifestyle now as a result of their music ergo, to my mind they have been and remain succesfull (albeit to a lesser degree) - the others - myself included - are not. We all have to have some other occupation to fund this love of music.. I must add that Mark Shreeve has proved a small success - not so much with his synth music releases but to 'popular music' collaborations and other projects - he is one of the rare EM artists who has been able to live of his music for many years now - but his 'Red Shift' project (again '75 TD style music!) has not yet proved to be a success. Ash Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1386 Re: tadream-digest V15 #849 John Wilson Mon 3/3/1997 2 KB From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sat Mar 1, 1997 10:08 pm Subject: Re: essay: MA & TD, Part 2 Really-From: arnold kalnitsky Dear Lars; I read your two essays with interest.In fact, the differentiation between 'myth' and 'history' that you deduce in reference to the artistic domain in fact can be found just about everywhere where perpetuation of image and legacy is considered important. It happens all the time, from political figures to sporting heroes. Transitory deeds, events, works, are turned into the substance of accomplishment in all realms of endeavor once taken from the realm of the physical and reflected upon in the realm of the contemplative. That is why the consideration of 'art for art's sake' can be a legitimate exercise in distinction from evaluating a work or career soley based on the historical and psychological factors surrounding the act of creation. Once a work is created it can be judged purely on aesthetic criteria, though knowledge of historical and social facts do add amplification and guidance to the process. Personally I may not choose to spend my time exploring a given work because I don't approve of certain individual or cultural factors which contributed to the creation of the work, but once I voluntarily engage, I try to evaluate purely on aesthetic grounds. Focussing on specifics, I didn't buy Tangents because I didn't think the outlay of that amountof money was worth the mostly re-worked versions of familiar creations. However, I feel it was still a legitimate exercise on the part of Edgar. The boxed set may have been intended to attract newer, less familiar listeners who would be desirous of an introductory anthology.I don't really like re-done versions of older works, preferring for an artist to let the past speak for itself and spend the time and energy on new creations.Be that as it may, even if the motivation was financial, it was a choice I can accept even though I found the point moot. As well, I think the focus on alleged personal motivation for creating given works or holding specific concerts also is irrelevant in large part.If that criterion is applied everywhere else then how many books, movies,other musical works, in fact almost all products would be purchased or viewed. Since art is also a livelihood we shouldn't be too elitist in expecting purity from financial considerations. However, once a work is out in the marketplace it must be judged by it's own aesthetic criteria, by the taste of the fans who make the financial comitment.That is what myth and legacy will be about. In future years art will stand or fall on it's own aesthetic import, not on the conditions and circumstances which surrounded it's genesis. From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sun Mar 2, 1997 12:52 am Subject: TD: The ultimate chill Really-From: Mark Filipak 120 to 240 beats/minute is only half the rave scene. The other half is chill, and TD is considered by many to be the ultimate chill. Some who really like cold isolationism would not agree of course, but most folk prefer a 'warmer' chill (if that makes sense) -- mellotron and the like. -- Mark tadream mailing list wrote: > > Really-From: dhughes@g... (David J. Hughes) > > Hi All, -snip- > > Whenever I talk with young trip-hoppers and mention TD, I'm amazed by > > the number who know the band. Some even know 'Zeit', 'Phaedra', etc. > > -- always the older stuff and then, of course 'Dream Mixes' -- not > > much in between. Hmmmm.... -- Mark > > Total agreement here, Mark. Everyone : Handy hint : take a trip to the > latest 'Rave' bar or student's union in Newcastle and ask anyone of the > cool trendy (weird) clubbers if they've heard of TD and the response is > instant : Edgar is highly thought of and respected. > > TD started it all. Rave acts use TD as the inspiration for thier new > music. Ever listened to the 'new' rave bands? Go to a night club and > listen to some of the bass riffs these folk are playing. You may even > hear a mellotron crooning in the background. > > Cheers > David From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sun Mar 2, 1997 5:35 am Subject: Re: Digest V15 #849 ??? about 'Lady Greengrass' Really-From: Vic Rek At 12:50 PM 3/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >Really-From: Craig Shipley >Hello, >I think that the single in question was released in the early '90's on a German compilation CD series titled something like 'Best Of The Star Club Vol. 2'. Don't have it so I cannot confirm it, but I do remember reading about in the TDIFC newsletter. You are 100% correct, except that it is Vol. 12, not 2 - but that's probably what you meant. Details: Lady Greengrass 2:41 Love of Mine 3:04 The Hamburg-Sound 842 544-2. There is a small picture of their single on the cover. The exact year of issue is not mentioned on the CD. > >As far as 'Ultima Thule', I don't think that it has ever seen the legitimate light of laser... I agree. No 'legal' laser burn available. Vic From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sun Mar 2, 1997 5:35 am Subject: Re: essay: MA & TD, Part 2 Really-From: Vic Rek >I don't really like >re-done versions of older works, preferring for an artist to let the past >speak for itself and spend the time and energy on new creations. I agree totally! I can go along with a remaster without a problem, but re-mixing, re-editing, etc... No! Klaus Schulze will never do this. He moves on and keeps proliferating good electrical tunes. Keep the new music coming! Vic From: tadream@c... (tadream mailing list) Date: Sun Mar 2, 1997 7:51 am Subject: 'Galaxies' $4 plus p&h Really-From: Mark Filipak Kevin Braheny 'Galaxies' I found this at my local store's bargain bin and though I already have it, I couldn't pass it up for US$4 knowing that someone on this list is bound to want it. Add California tax & shipping and this classic is in your hands for US$6.50, worldwide. First come first served. -- Mark Replies Name/Email Yahoo! ID Date Size 1361 'Galaxies' $4 plus p&h Mark Filipak